How to Coach Executives and Influence Change with Brad Toussaint

Brad Toussaint:
It’s great to learn everything about every part of the organization, but really helping coach and develop capability at the level a leader lives every day is really important.

Katie Anderson:
Welcome to Chain of Learning where the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people-centered learning culture, get results, and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy. I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson.

Have you ever seen leaders’ eyes glaze over or get blank stares when you start talking about the great changes they’ll see? If they adopt a new method or apply a process improvement tool that you know will help them? One of our challenges as process improvement enthusiasts is that our technical knowledge and passion for solving problems can actually get in the way when we’re trying to influence executives and operational leaders. Because sometimes we get so immersed in our lean or Six Sigma or methodology-based lingo that we’re not speaking in language that resonates with leaders. If you’re listening to the show, you probably are already passionate about process improvement and love solving problems and leading change. But being an effective change leader and coach isn’t just about having the technical know-how. It’s about being able to explain all the methods, tools, and behaviors in a way that business leaders and executives can really understand and then apply.

Katie Anderson:
One of the important skills for leading change and influencing leaders is being able to speak the language of business and translate how principles, methodologies, and tools will impact business outcomes. I call this being a knowledgeable business expert in my katalyst change leader model. It’s someone who possesses a deep understanding of how their organization creates value and measures results, including being able to speak in terms that resonate with leadership. And of course, then we have to be able to coach and support our leaders on how they can be serious about how to do it to help you understand how to more effectively communicate with and coach executives to lead the changes that you know will get the results they need and want. I’ve brought Brad Toussaint to the show. Brad is a seasoned change leader with over 35 years of experience as a management and improvement professional. He served as a hospital vice president and external management consultant and and a leadership coach. His specialty is coaching and advising executives on transforming their management or operating systems and developing their leadership capabilities by thinking differently about management and applying that thinking in a way that drives improved performance.

Katie Anderson:
Brad and I have a strong personal connection in my chain of learning. He was my boss nearly two decades ago at Stanford Children’s Hospital where we were partners for six years in leading change and being the fire starters for lean and process improvement, him at the executive level and me as a performance improvement director. In the last decade, we’ve partnered together with several clients as external consultants, supporting the development of management systems and leadership capabilities to create higher-performing organizations. And Brad has come with me to Japan on my executive Japan study trips, not just once, but twice. First as a consultant to learn for himself, and then recently bringing together a cohort of executives that he’s coaching. Brad’s been such an incredible thought partner and mentor for me for nearly 20 years, and I’m excited for you to learn from him as well. We started our conversation reflecting on how Brad’s early career as a management consultant and then years as an internal leader in an organization influenced how he now coaches executives today and his approach to leading operational excellence. Let’s dive in.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah. So, I did start as an external consultant and I didn’t know anything about Lean or Six Sigma or any of that. So, over 16 years of doing that, I thought I was doing a great job and really supporting my clients. I got recruited to lead up the improvement work at Stanford Children’s Hospital, as you mentioned in your intro. Well, actually interesting about that is when I was being interviewed by the CEO at the time we were talking, and it was going well, and he said, well, I have one more question, Brad, I need to ask you. What’s your experience with Six Sigma and Lean? I thought for a second, I said, well, to be honest, I don’t know much about that stuff and that’s not the way I’ve been successful in my career. So, if that’s what you’re looking for, that’s probably not. I’m probably not your guy.

Brad Toussaint:
And he thought for a second, and he said, well, Brad, I gotta tell you, I’m glad to hear you say that. Cause I don’t know what those things are either. So anyway, you got the job. So I thought, okay, well, I’ll do what I’ve been doing as an outside consultant and I will. Which was basically hire really smart people, let them loose on projects. And I hired really smart people, let them loose on projects. Katie Anderson being foremost among them. So I thought it was going well for the first couple of years.

Brad Toussaint:
Then I started to realize that, huh? Now that I’m internal, I have to worry about things like continuous improvement and sustainability. And we were doing great projects, but they weren’t necessarily sustaining, they weren’t driving sustainable year-over-year performance improvement. Furthermore, we couldn’t solve all the, you know, there were hundreds of problems, there were hundreds of things we needed to work on and ended up having four, five, six people. We couldn’t solve everything. So started thinking, huh? There’s got to be a better way. It also made me think about something a client said before when I was a consultant, which is, hey, Brad, you’re really good at lighting the fuse and then running. It’s like, huh, well, thank you. Didn’t know really what that meant.

Brad Toussaint:
But now I’m internal as a leader and think, oh, wow, now I get that. So now I’m here trying to deal with, with the fuse and what’s going to happen. So I remember having conversation with that same CEO, and we were lamenting that this isn’t really working, how we thought it was going to work. There’s got to be a better way. So we went in search of a better way. And Katie, you were my primary partner in that search. And you started and went out, and we started to find places like Seattle Children’s and some other places in healthcare that had started experimenting with this thing called lean. We ultimately learned a ton.

Brad Toussaint:
And I remember the big aha for me was that it wasn’t really just an improvement system, it was really how you run the company. It was an operating system, a management system. And that was, and the big, the thing that really blew my mind was when really saw in these organizations, inside healthcare and outside healthcare, how improvement and getting results was part of how they ran the company, not an extracurricular activity. And so anyway, we started doing that work in more of a holistic, systemic way at Stanford and started getting some really good results. And to me, the big tipping point for the organization, but also for me as a learner, was when we connected what we were trying to do systemically to some really important results that we were trying to get as an organization. And that was around reducing hospital-acquired conditions, infections, and things like that. So we set really specific goals. We applied thinking the principles to the work that produced results within the care settings, and we had a way to check those results and continuously improve those.

Brad Toussaint:
So that was the big aha. That’s when we really started getting traction, I think, as an organization. So that was really big in my learning, and starting to connect the dots between getting results and thinking about this as a system to get results.

Katie Anderson:
And to add to that too, I think that was so critical of choosing those things that are really important to what executives and leaders needed to achieve and do, which is the business results. And also a shift that we made was us as the internal consultants and the external consultants, not so much being the doers of the improvement, but how we shifted from being those smart people going out and fixing the problems in the organization, which I loved doing, but really that, aha. That we needed to be more of the coaches and the enablers of managers and directors and the executives to lead the work and how we could coach and develop them, to lead it and sustain it and continuously improve it. Because when you deploy me somewhere else, things might not sustain because we hadn’t really set up the system for ongoing, continuous improvement. And so I think those two things coupled together were really transformative in our ability to create a more enduring change system that was getting the results and developing people.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah, absolutely. It was striking for me personally the pivot that I made to your point, just thinking about the role of myself and Katie, you and the rest of the team as improvement professionals and experts, and what could we do to really systemically help the organization improve and help leaders get results. And it wasn’t us doing the work, it was us helping to translate and simplify and distill these principles in a meaningful way for the leaders to be able to apply them to what was important to them.

Katie Anderson:
Yes, and your transformation was my transformation, too. And those experiences together really has shaped how I lead, and I coach as well. So it’s one of the reasons we work so well together. I think we’ve had that shared learning. One of the things I hear and see, and it’s one of my experiences, too, is we have a lot of internal or external lean or continuous improvement consultants and coaches who are so excited and see the possibility, but they might be leading more with, like, the lean lingo in the terms of all the things they’re going to do, rather than really being able to connect that to what executives value. And so we’re like missing making that leap. Can you talk to me more about what you’ve learned about that and how you really speak in a way that connects with what leaders need, even though, you know, the vision to get there is, you know, is all the quote-unquote lean stuff or continuous improvement practices?

Brad Toussaint:
I think what I’ve learned is that language is important, and it can really work as a force for or against what you’re trying to do. So what I’ve tried to do is think of myself as a principles expert and really downplay the lingo. When you use a lot of that lean jargon, for instance, it subtly reinforces, hey, I’m an expert in something, and you the leader are not. So what I tried to do is really be mindful about aligning with purpose. What is that leader’s purpose? What are they really trying to do? And then listening and having empathy for them and what they’re trying to do, because they’re the ones that have to deliver the results. They’re the ones on the line. And leaders can be experts in getting results. We as professionals need to develop expertise in listening and being empathetic and then being the ones that are more the translators of the thinking, not so much the users of a different language.

Brad Toussaint:
I’ve really had to develop more empathy and active listening and really ways to meet the leader where they are. And so that’s been a journey and something that’s even now sometimes hard to remember to do. But it’s really important that accountability has to stay with the leader and that ownership for results.

Katie Anderson:
That concept of meeting leaders where they’re at is a key theme that came through in my conversation with Penny Sahm as well, about how she’s leading change at the port of Seattle, which was back in Chain of Learning, episode 17 for our listeners who want to go back and listen to that as well, but so critical, meet leaders where they’re at, speak the language that resonates that with them, and know that executives are there because they were hired to get results. I mean, businesses are there to get results, regardless if you’re a nonprofit or a for-profit organization. But it’s the way to get there that we can really influence and help leaders see that there might be a different way, both in terms of behavior and in terms of process as well, that we’ll still get the outcomes they want or maybe more effectively.

Brad Toussaint:
Absolutely. Yeah. I loved the talk with Penny. I learned a lot about leading from the middle, leading from where you can get some traction. It’s really a great starting point, but it’s back to leaders and meeting leaders where they are and helping them deepen their capability as leaders to get results right.

Katie Anderson:
And we did a lot of that at Stanford Children’s, where we were leading from the middle. Some of you know, you’re working at the executive level, but we were starting to build that enthusiastic enthusiasm and capability. That’s really where I was at that time two decades ago about leading that change, and it is so much more effective and accelerates impact when you really can bring those executive leaders on board. And that is really something that you’re really strong at. What are some things that you think about, Brad, in terms of how you influence and work with senior leaders, you know, speaking their language, knowing they need to get results, but also helping bring them along on seeing how they might do things differently to get there.

Brad Toussaint:
For me, in my practice, working with senior leaders, that’s really the trick. So I’m better than I used to be. I don’t know that I’m great at it now, but there are probably two things that I would say that are foremost when I’m thinking about this. One is how to really simplify and distill what we’re trying to do in service of getting results. So it’s not about all these lean terms and concepts. It’s really about simplifying and demystifying some of it, so that leaders have a starting point to start learning and building that capability. And then you can start building more sophistication and deeper thinking. An example of that is when we talk about a management system or an operating system, what I have found to be helpful is to describe it in simple terms.

Brad Toussaint:
There’s four pieces to it. One is that the organization has to figure out what it’s trying to achieve and be really clear about that and focus the organization and align the organization on that. So number one is, what are we trying to do as an organization? Number two is, how do we do the work? How do we produce what it is we’re trying to do? How does the work, system work to deliver that? So it’s what do we need to do and how are we going to do it? And then we need a way to see where there are gaps in what we’re doing. So we know we can design the work in an ideal way to get the results. And the world is in a perfect place. So there’s always going to be some gaps. We’re not going to be perfect in getting those results. So how do we see those so that we can react to them? And once we see them, the last thing is we need a way to close those gaps.

Brad Toussaint:
We need a way to improve the work and make sure that the work is actually achieving the results we want. So in simplest terms, that’s what we’re trying to do as a company. That’s the operating system or the management system. And yeah, there are a lot of things within each of those. But at the end of the day, if you keep those things as a leader in mind, you’re going to start understanding the systems or the practices that need to evolve to be successful in each of those, those different pieces. So that simplifying and demystifying has really resonated with, with leaders in my experience, probably the second thing I would say is it’s a mistake that I’ve made a lot in my, in my time. Doing this is trying to get senior leaders to the front line to do frontline work and frontline problem solving. And while that’s it’s good learning, what leaders really need to learn is how do we apply principles in order to do the jobs that we have, not the jobs other people have.

Brad Toussaint:
It’s great to learn everything about every part of the organization, but really helping coach and develop capability at the elevation or at the level a leader lives every day is really important so that you’re not wasting their time or appearing to waste their time, but you’re really helping to meet them where they’re at. You’re helping them be successful applying the principles, learning and developing capability to do their job.

Katie Anderson:
That was such a key learning that I had too, in the role I took after working with you at Stanford Children’s of the CEO who is leading change in a large healthcare system. He said, our executive team needs to learn these principles and practice them as it relates to our strategy deployment and how that connects with how we’re helping support the sort of different layers within the organization. So using the same principles that we’re asking the managers at the front line to be doing, but applying it to the work they actually need to be doing. And of course, it’s important to go and support and go see and validate, but have that connect really with what their actual scope of responsibility is, problem-solving thinking and the clarity and asking the coaching questions and using that scientific mindset applied to their work. So critically important.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah. If you’re a senior leader and one of the main things is setting direction or being really clear about what we might call in lean term strategy deployment, you’re trying to help the organization really understand the direction of the organization and align their work to help achieve that. And so what senior leaders need to be really good, a capability that needs to be developed, is how do I as a senior leader, create that clarity? How do I set those expectations with clarity and focus, and how do I build alignment? And it’s not typically by email and it’s not typically one conversation, but it’s really a set of practices that senior leaders need to be really good at, at their level of the organization to help the overall organization and that whole system be effective.

Katie Anderson:
One of the things you and I have talked a lot about over the last year, you know, you joined me on my Japan study trip in 2023 and there was a comment that Mister Yoshino, who’s a subject of my book, learning to lead, leading to learn, said that really resonated with both of us and everyone on the program as well, that to be successful, leaders must be serious. And we’ve talked a lot about what that means. I’d love to hear and have listeners hear from you about how you’ve taken that concept about the serious leader and how that’s also helping you influence the leaders that you’re coaching and advising right now.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah, no, that was a big aha for me, really thinking about the role of the leader and seeing in Japan. And thank you so much for setting up that trip. And I’ve gone twice, and it’s really been transformational for me to deeply think and reflect and develop my capabilities to understand what a serious leader is. And that whole notion, and it’s also helped me, what I, from what I’ve saw in Japan, to connect the dots with other really outstanding organizations and what leaders are doing in those organizations, even here in the US, Alcoa under Paul O’Neill. And I think about the many times I’ve been to visit places like Autoleave in Utah, really good companies, and now I understand more about what the leaders are doing and trying to think about how do I define what a serious leader is. And I think it starts with the senior, most leaders spending the time and thought and investment in their brain to define really what that point on the horizon is that the company needs to get to what good looks like, what’s that value to society, to customers that is intrinsic to the company that the company needs to produce, and really setting that as a goal and being deeply convicted around that. And I was struck by Mister Iguchi from Panasonic on our trip, and how he talked about the law of half one, over two half, and the idea of 1000% conviction of the leader. And the notion really quickly is that a leader can have 100% conviction, and then when that translates down to the next level, it turns into 50% conviction and so on, all the way down to the organization.

Brad Toussaint:
And it’s hard to really create that alignment and organizational conviction unless the senior leader starts with 1000% conviction. So anyway, so I’ve been thinking a lot about the thousand percent conviction and maybe how that needs to be reflected from the senior leader in a thousand ways. So 1000% in a thousand ways, and really what that role of the senior leader is to convey that conviction around the goal and the way to get there. And so it’s really thinking about where to get to and then deeply about what do we have to do, what’s our method of operating in such a way that it will align and get us there all the time? We saw great examples in Japan. And probably the other thing that became very clear about the serious leader to me is something that I’ve been learning from other organizations, too. And another dot I connected is the notion of setting expectations and following up and how fundamental that is to leadership and effective leadership and getting results. And it put it into a deeper context for me. So I think if there’s anything that leaders can do tomorrow is start really taking seriously this notion of setting expectations with clarity and focus and alignment and following up with consistency and conviction every day and in every way.

Katie Anderson:
And that is perfectly aligned with, you know, the essence of what I talk about in my book, that this concept of leading to learn is a leader’s purpose is three part to set direction, provide support, which is that follow up the coaching, the conditions for people to be successful and develop yourself. Because it’s, it’s hard to stay true to that. And it’s easy to get so focused on the results and the doing. And we’ve talked about that in a lot of past podcast episodes, too, about how to balance this being with doing. And that was such a huge theme on both the Japan study trips that you went on in 2023 and most recently in 2024 is how do we move to that being and the behaviors that are going to drive it. And I feel like too often we have this focus on results. So as an effective coach and leader, you need to get the results. But we are so focused on the results that we forget about the way to get there.

Katie Anderson:
Not only a focus on process, but really a focus on people. And if we focus on people and then process, we will get the results. How is your thinking evolved? And that was like a big aha for me in this, you know, or maybe not an AhA because it’s something I’ve known, but there was one of the Toyota management Institute leaders came in and shared a slide with that, and I was like, oh, that’s so true. It’s this like inverted pyramid. It’s not just process, it’s the people, and then drive it there. Like, if we want to get results and speak that language of leaders because they want the results, how do you connect the dots, not only just in process improvement, but also that investment in developing people is the way that you’re going to get the results. And so actually, that’s where leaders should be focusing their time. Be clear on the results that you need.

Katie Anderson:
But it’s really, if you put the effort here on the people, that’s the way that, the how, the way to get the results.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah, a lot of us were, we’re taught sort of management by objective, and really how do we focus solely on the results and then reward or punish people for getting those? I think you and I learned a lot as we were out. Learning about what excellent organizations are doing is really seeing that focus on the way, on the method. So more management by means or management by method. And what I’ve come to really appreciate is that results, going back to that simple framework for management system results are really the outcome of the work system. So how the work is done and work is a function of two things, process capability and people capability, and a lot of lean tools. And six Sigma really focuses on process and not as much on the people part. So really appreciating what it takes for people to be competent and confident in the work that they’re doing and engaged and motivated to do it at their full capacity. So really, the serious leader really is able to think about the work system and how that drives results and has a deep understanding that it’s not only process capability or system capability, but also people capability, and being very mindful about that.

Brad Toussaint:
And that actually links to another concept around accountability. And it’s really important when serious leaders are very clear and convicted about the goal and the way, and they’re able to set expectations and follow up. Part of the follow up is going and interacting with people and understanding their capability and their motivation and their competence and confidence, and being able to coach, see those gaps and coach to close those gaps. And that’s really part of the job of the leader. So part of the accountability is holding people accountable and supporting them in the way, in understanding the way, in being capable, in following the way. And when you set expectations, follow up, it puts you right where it’s all happening and gives you an opportunity to see the gaps and to help coach and close those gaps.

Katie Anderson:
What are some ways or examples that you have been helping executives understand that way and help make that change for themselves, from that focus on doing as the way to achieve the results to the focus on being as the way to achieve results?

Brad Toussaint:
I think going on the trip has been really helpful in that we had, from my current client, three executives go with us. So I think a lot of light bulbs went on for them to say a little bit more about that. It’s been great to see them start to use the experiences on the trip, including being that notion as a common reference point and be able to challenge each other. So anyway, I think part of it is to help leaders think through. How can they position themselves to be able to see gaps and learn from gaps and being able to think about the operating system we’re trying to do in simple terms, allows them less real estate about lingo and terms and a lot of clutter, but really helps them think and reflect. And so one of the things really most effective is have something really important that the organization needs to achieve and apply these principles, set really clear expectations and goals and make sure that, and practice getting alignment and see where your own capabilities need to develop. And then that will help you see where capabilities and others need to develop. Be present in seeing the connection between the work and the outcomes.

Brad Toussaint:
Think about how we’re seeing gaps and maybe how your systems and your organization structured or not to be able to see gaps and then the capabilities to be able to close those gaps. There’s a lot of reflection and trying to help leaders position themselves to see gaps because once you see gaps and then have structured reflection time, that’s when the learning happens and that’s when the development happens. So it’s observation plus reflection equals learning.

Katie Anderson:
What a powerful equation there. Observation plus reflection equals learning. And that, that difference between what we expected to happen and what actually happens. You know, it’s really interesting as you’re talking, Brad. You know, I think it really speaks to how people usually think. Sort of external consultants or even internal consultants are operating as those doers. And you’re not talking about you going in and fixing all the problems. You’re all talking about holding space for reflection, holding space for learning, helping see different ways of being.

Katie Anderson:
And that’s really the power of being a truly transformational coaching leader, as well as like not always doing the doing, but actually holding that space for learning.

Brad Toussaint:
It’s really easy for us to say, oh yeah, you gotta, you need reflection time. It’s really hard for busy leaders to carve out that time as much as, oh, I believe that. So finding ways to start reflecting and getting value from that and doing it in the path of the work. So when somebody goes, a leader goes to follow up, making sure that that target, actual gap that you talked about is very explicit in their mind when they go and see and follow up. And then they’re able to more quickly in the flow of the, of that follow up, be able to also see the gap clearly. So now they’re observing, and even in the car going back to their office or you don’t need tons of time to reflect, but you need to be able to do it efficiently. Then you start creating, pull forward as you see the value of it and then you hopefully get to a point where you’re actually putting time on your calendar. So it’s a process.

Brad Toussaint:
And I think one of the things that as coaches, we need to be really empathetic about is how busy and how much pressure leaders have on them for results and for a lot of busyness. And the more they can think about this and you help them think and it’s a journey. And so we all have to be patient as well as empathetic to set the conditions for them to learn. And then they’re going to figure out the best way to create time and space for reflection and doing the other things that are needed.

Katie Anderson:
Great suggestions. You know, I want to go back to, you mentioned you’ve been on the Japan study trip twice. You went, saw a lot of value for yourself as an individual and as a consultant. And then this recently, just this year, you brought a cohort of six executives that you’re coaching and consulting with and another external consultant who’s on your team too. What was your intention around bringing them to Japan and what was the power of them coming as an executive cohort and the power of that group learning and how you’re going to leverage that now going back into the work.

Brad Toussaint:
The intention was really to help those leaders go and actually see. So observe and have some space to reflect. And Katie, you do a really nice job, which is why I wanted to go on your trip of creating the opportunities to see and observe and then building in that reflection time. So it’s the commitment to see and reflect that helps them now connect the dots to a lot of the coaching that my colleague and I have been doing back at the ranch, so to speak. You know, pictures worth a thousand words and going and seeing actual leaders practicing is worth whatever times 1000. So that was great. And so that reflection and so their development progressing, but then going together is really important because it does give that common reference point so they can, they can challenge. They’ve already started challenging each other, as I think I said, and pushing each other’s thinking based on things that they saw in common so that they can debate based on not what they think, but what they actually observed and reflected on.

Brad Toussaint:
And that’s already, you know, back at the organization that’s continuing. There was a lot to absorb and think through. And so reflection is on the trip will never end, it just gives that common reference point and a way for them also to come together as a team and do some forming around something really, really important, which is, how are we going to lead this organization together into the future? How do we progress our capabilities so that we can progress the goal in the way at the organization? So it’s not, they don’t come away with the list of answers. They come away with an opportunity to reflect and develop and think through deeply how to apply that to their job in leading the organization.

Katie Anderson:
And so, you know, that shared reflection space to get away from the busyness of the work and have these shared learning experiences is so powerful. It was, I loved hosting this cohort and another cohort, actually, of, you know, the port of Seattle, who Penny som talked about. They’ve been sending cohorts together because of the power of that shared learning. You know, it can be powerful as an individual, but the group shared learning is special as well. And I loved you shared with me, too, that there was a lot of benefit for your executives, too, even before we went to the trip with some of the pre-trip learning, like my book, learning to lead, leading to learn, and the reflection questions and some of the prep and the video. So there are ways that leaders can be learning even if they aren’t able to go to Japan, but still, still have some of this reflection time and taking some of these principles, too.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah, it’s part of the journey. And it’s not just the five or six days of going and doing stuff in Japan. It’s the preparation and the forcing function of, okay, I’m going to read these books to prepare. I’m going to do some thinking. I’m going to prepare questions for these different sites and these different leaders. That’s a really important part. So it just the curation of the whole experience that is really, again, you’re sort of the lighting the fuse of learning and reflecting that that fuse will go on for a long time, but it’s a never-ending journey, but it’s sort of a supercharged part of it. I can’t say enough about the forced time to think about this stuff and reflect and really focus on learning instead of just the busyness of the day.

Brad Toussaint:
We’re all victims of the urgent rather than what’s important. So how do we flip that?

Katie Anderson:
Can you talk to me more about advice for other change leaders, either consultants who are helping influence change in their organization or other organizations, or internal executives and leaders who really see this as the way forward, but not sure how to get there. What are your parting words of wisdom to our fellow change leaders?

Brad Toussaint:
Do some deep thinking about what it means to be a serious leader. There’s a lot in lean and other methods around the way the organization has to be and how you have to improve or have the science of industrial engineering and those sorts of things. All of that needs to be in the context of how leaders are leading an organization. And so to me, it starts with the leadership. And to the extent that leaders can seek to understand what it means to be a serious leader and then get some help in simplifying the application of these principles to help them be serious leaders, I think that’s number one. Number two, probably is appreciating deeply how important the people part of this is. And that, yes, the work system is what drives results, but the work system is made up of process and process capability, but a company is made of people. And so you really have to think about what are the people capabilities.

Brad Toussaint:
And that is a combination of not only the skills needed for them to feel competent and comfortable in their job, but about, you know, how their motivation, their engagement, and making life easy for them to be successful. So those are a couple things. And then probably for us professionals in improvement, just that empathy, really understanding, meeting people where they’re at, having empathy for the pressures and busyness and all the things that make it hard to be a leader and connecting with really fundamentally what they need to do, which to me a big part of it is they’re on the line for getting results. And how can they do that in the most effective way so that empathy and active listening, meeting them where they’re at, as opposed to imposing the way we need to help them figure out the way for them to be successful, to help the organization be successful.

Katie Anderson:
Thank you for those great nuggets of advice and wisdom from years of experience, both being the internal change leader and then, you know, advising the executives as well. And what I’m really hearing from that, if we go back to where we started, which is being able to connect the dots for leaders on what they need to achieve and speaking in a language that’s really going to resonate with them, and then helping them see the way, but not necessarily leading with leading with all the tools in the lingo, which might actually put up barriers to that pathway forward.

Brad Toussaint:
Yeah, they don’t have time to learn a whole new language or a whole new religion. I’ve had a lot of CEO’s. Well, I kind of like what you’re talking about, but I don’t want to join a cult. And it’s easy for us to get very zealous about all the things that we understand can be so helpful for organizations. And we need to remember that we’re not the ones who are driving results and it’s really the leader’s job. So how can we help them not help ourselves?

Katie Anderson:
I think we didn’t touch on this, but what’s the risk if, you know, change leaders and consultants are leading with their zealousy and enthusiasm, but not really connecting the dots for the leaders. What have you seen happen when that happens?

Brad Toussaint:
Usually not anything good. It happens so often and oftentimes because the change or improvement professionals are not seeing the engagement and the pull from leaders. So the countermeasure is to push and to actually do the leading and doing the changing. And there can be a little bit of at times helping leaders see what good looks like. But fundamentally what it means is there’s probably a gap between target and actual. And the target is that leaders are pulling because they understand that the way to get results is by being clear and aligned around the goal and the way, and they’ve thought through the way and that they see that the way is going to help them be successful in getting results. So there may be leaders who have an intrinsic kind of moral affinity to a lot of this stuff. That doesn’t mean that they’re going to jump on board.

Brad Toussaint:
And there may be leaders that really they need the results and that’s the thing that’s really most important to them. So just connecting those dots for them and that’s really the way that things will sustain and the way that you can really be helpful. I think we all know if we’re the ones doing it, so to speak, it’s not going to sustain. And that’s where you and I were at the start of this conversation 20 years ago.

Katie Anderson:
Well, thank you so much, Brad. Thrilled that you are here today to help impart some of your lessons from the trenches and wisdom with listeners here today.

Brad Toussaint:
Well, you’ve been an awesome learning partner, too, and a big part of my chain of learning, so really appreciate. It’s great to talk and just further think about all this important stuff.

Katie Anderson:
There were so many great insights, as there always are from this conversation with Brad. Here are a few of my key takeaways. First, keep it simple. Don’t use jargon or make principles and methods overly complex. Get back to the principles and focus on connecting the dots for leaders on their purpose, the business results they need to achieve, and then the process systems and methods to get there. As Brad explained in this episode, a management system is simply getting clarity on one, what are you trying to achieve? Two, how will you do it? Three, how will you see the gaps between what you need to achieve and what’s actually happening? And then four, how will you close the gaps and improve? After Brad and I finished recording this episode, he shared with me a graphic that connects these simple operating system principles to the plan do check act or PDCA cycle of continuous improvement. I’ll put that graphic in the episode. Show [email protected] 22nd it’s about people first, and then the processes and systems together.

Katie Anderson:
People and process will drive results, but remember, it’s all about people first. And third, remember to have empathy. Leading is hard, especially with pressures to get results and all the other things that leaders have to get done. Leading and leading change requires patience and 1000% commitment. Brad and I highlighted in the episode a few competencies that are essential to master to be an effective change leader, including what I call being a knowledgeable business expert and a transformational coaching leader in my katalyst change model. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to download my free katalyst self-assessment that covers all eight competencies that you need to [email protected]/katalyst spelled with a “K” katalyst and go back to listen to episode nine of this podcast to learn more about each competency. As Brad and I mentioned, and I believe strongly, reflection is where we learn.

Katie Anderson:
So I want you to reflect on this episode, especially on two points, and identify first, how can you simplify, how you communicate the reasons for change, the needed results, and the way to get there? And two, whether you’re a coach, consultant, or leader, what is one way that you can be more serious about leading change? And if you and your leaders want to accelerate your leadership impact like Brad has as an individual and his clients as an executive team together have done, consider joining one of my immersive executive Japan study trips. You can learn more and [email protected]/japantrip I’ll put the link to apply as well as all the other resources mentioned in the show in the episode notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to follow and subscribe now so you never miss an episode and share it with your friends and colleagues so we can all strengthen our chain of learning together. Thanks for being a link in my chain of learning today. I’ll see you next time.