Leading Organizational Transformation the Right Way with Cindy Hinds

Cindy:
We took him out to a GEMBA observation exercise, very structured, very intentional. What do you think you’re gonna see? You know? What would you expect? And he comes back, and he is flabbergasted by what the folks doing the work are putting up with to get it done. And he can see that they are working as hard as they can, as fast as they can, as best they can, to take care of the customer. And he’s like, how did it get like this? How did this happen? And the instructor of the class looked at him, and she said, Well, gimme a reflection of management. You don’t like what you see. Look in the mirror. Welcome to

Katie:
chain of learning, where the links of Leadership and Learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people centered learning culture get results and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy. I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast. Do you ever feel like you’re stuck, that no matter how hard you try, how many problems you solve or improvement tools you apply that you and your team aren’t making progress in creating a sustainable organizational culture where people are engaged, capable and confident to apply their best thinking to create business results and deliver value at all levels. It’s time to stop leading change the wrong way and to help you discover how to lead and create a high performing organization the right way, I’ve invited Cindy Hines to the show. Cindy is the global director for enterprise excellence at ao Smith, a manufacturing company with sites based across North America, Asia and Europe, where she is responsible for architecting ao Smith’s journey to create a culture of highly engaged people who are aligned in solving problems and innovating to drive business performance. Leading organizational change is challenging at any scale, and becomes especially challenging when tasked with creating a sustainable system across a global enterprise. Cindy has learned from over 25 years of experience about what it takes to lead transformational change the right way, and I’ve invited her here to chain of learning, to share her insights with you so you can avoid making the same mistakes and get on the right track towards your vision of a sustained culture of excellence. We started off our conversation exploring Cindy’s journey as a trained engineer with over two decades of applying lean and continuous improvement principles in manufacturing and office environments to being the leader of an enterprise wide transformation for an international company. Let’s dive in. So I

Cindy:
was with a large multinational corporation when I started my career as a as a process engineer, and was really fortunate that process engineers tend to be the ones that you teach lean to at the very beginning, right? Lean tools, and so I learned straight out of college, even though I’m a chemical engineer by education, started learning. I still have my learning to see book by Mike Rother right still on my shelf. He was my very first one, and learn how to apply tools and systems in a very non traditional manufacturing environment. So it was not assembly at all. About 18 years ago, I came to AO Smith as a continuous improvement manager for our large commercial facility, and what I found was a leader who wanted to do it the right way, but he and I really, neither one knew how to do that. We but darn, we were gonna try. So I got to work for him for a couple of years, and really, I think, hone my skills around daily management, leader, standard work, some of the managerial behaviors you’re looking for. Fast forward a few years, and I’m back in this role, but now I’m in it from a global standpoint, and trying to be humble, trying to reflect on what didn’t work. Really came to the understanding that my approach 18 years ago was not gonna work on a global scale, and it wasn’t sustainable. So doing my deep reflection and learning that that wasn’t going to work, I figured out I had to do something different. So sitting down with my boss, who, funny enough, was the same guy that was my boss 18 years ago, was like, okay, it worked as long as we were there, but when we left, it stopped. So how do we keep that from happening again? So we decided on a different plan, and I determined I really needed some upskilling. My technical skills were good, but my that’s not what was gonna move the needle for our senior leaders. So I had some work to do, and that’s where I went and got my coach training, and spent about a year studying and learning how to take myself out of the center of it and think about it from their perspective, and then just meet them where they were and help them through what it was they really wanted

Katie:
such a powerful reflection to realize we can’t just be the technical problem solvers doing it all, even though it’s so exciting and fun, and I’m glad I’m really good, I know. Me too. I love it. You know. I want to go back to a comment you made. I thought was really insightful around you. Realized you needed to do it the right way, you and your boss, and maybe let’s unpack a little bit of it. What have you discovered is the right way to lead to create a true continuous improvement culture?

Cindy:
I think it comes down to a couple things, but for me, at the core of it is understanding your role as a leader, and that your job is not to get results, it’s to serve those people who work for you and ensure that they can get the results. So whether that’s understanding where their knowledge gaps are, where their skill gaps are, where their clarity gaps are, and helping them close those gaps, it doesn’t mean you do it for them, but you help them come up with a plan and execute to that plan so that they can then do the work you need them to do. So getting work through others as leaders, it’s a skill to learn. And when you move from technician to leader, we don’t necessarily get schooled in that. And so for me, the right way was to begin to build out that piece of it so that we can ensure that every leader that we had understood their role as a coach, as a mentor, as a teacher and as a provider of clarity. And that’s a that’s a big difference. And so for me, that was the crux of the right way.

Katie:
I mean, it goes back to, you know, that simple concept of a leader’s role is like, secrete that clarity of where we need to go and the conditions and capability within our teams to get there. So you still need the results, right? I mean, business leaders need results, but it can’t be you doing, getting all the results all the time, not enough hours in the day, not enough hours in the day. No, there’s not enough Cindy’s in the world. It’s amazing and wonderful that you, you know, focused on your own development. You know, by getting your certification as a coach and developing yourself was just such a critical part of being a successful leader. How have you started to help the leaders in your organization also see this need for change and support them along that way, because that’s really hard, right to realize that you know, what’s led you to the success in the past isn’t necessarily what’s going to really lead you to success in the future. Well,

Cindy:
I think it started with a really good sponsor in my boss, and then also, having been with the company long enough, I had built up a lot of trust with the senior leaders in their prior roles. They knew me. They knew me for years. They knew that what I said came with a level of credibility, and so that helped a lot. The other thing was the coaching skills that I had now allowed me to ask questions from a place of curiosity, talk to me about what your challenges are, what are you not happy with? And it became their agenda instead of mine, and that was one of the challenges that I had. I used to want to do it exactly this way, and that doesn’t serve them, and it doesn’t serve the company. And so when I was able to let go of that and say, Well, what problem do you need solved? Now, let’s talk about how I can help you close that gap. It really came down to their they began to really embrace that. And I got a really powerful story one of our business leaders. We took him out to a GEMBA observation exercise, very structured, very intentional. What do you think you’re gonna see? You know? What would you expect? And he comes back, and he is flabbergasted by what the folks doing the work are putting up with to get it done. And he can see that they are working as hard as they can, as fast as they can, as best they can, to take care of the customer. And he’s like, how did it get like this? How? How did this happen? And the instructor of the class looked at him, and she said, Well, Gemma’s a reflection of management. You don’t like what you see. Look in the mirror, and he and he just turned purple. He turned purple. I thought he was going to lose his mind, but he just sat there real quietly. A couple days later, he came back and he said, you know, you’re right. It is about me, and if I don’t change and I don’t understand the processes and the policies that we’re putting in place that are putting people in this position, if I don’t fix that, who else is going to and so it’s those kinds of aha experiences that change everything.

Katie:
What was the impact of this aha for him, not just both for him and the organization? So

Cindy:
it’s interesting, he recently retired, and I cried when he left, because he had he told me before he left, he said, Cindy, in this role, I finally realized that my value was in helping others find theirs. I became a better leader by becoming a coach and understanding what was mine to own and what was theirs, and helping them live into that. And so for me, those are the those are the moments that you can only ever hope for. And then when they when they come, just hold on to them, right? Because it it carries you through when times are tough, that you know that you make that kind of difference. With that leader and with their subsequent organization. This is a man who had, at the time, like 5000 people reporting up in his organization. It was not a small impact, because then how he’s speaking with his leaders, how he is setting expectations, how he is driving accountability, how he is coaching begins to trickle down. And so it was, it was transformational for him and for me, the power

Katie:
of Go see, you know, go to GEMBA, meaning to go to the place that the work actually happens. And, you know, getting out of that pressure of all these, you know, decisions you have to make in your office. And like, how do we help leaders go see and then love, the really powerful question that the coach asked about. You know, this is a reflection of you and having the humility to take a look, you know, like that’s a that’s really vulnerable for someone to say, Wow, actually, what I’m seeing is a result of how I’m leading. You know, in addition to going to see what are some other ways that you’ve been helping executives and ops leaders see this connection between how they’re leading, sort of those behaviors and the business outcomes and the processes that are existing in their organization. Yeah,

Cindy:
I think one of the things that we’ve done that has been really foundational is that we have engaged the Franklin Covey Speed of Trust curriculum, if you’re not familiar with it, to me that content provides very simple language that helps leaders connect behaviors to business and it they talk about, you know, how trust is the foundation of everything right, and things that we do that we don’t realize are breaking trust, and things that are building trust. And so by having them do an initial assessment and then going through a program, and then, like 12 weeks of huddles with their peers and with their direct reports, where they’re reflecting on trust, building behaviors or behaviors that may be breaking trust and how that’s working or not working, they start to connect it. They start to see that the teams that are high performing are the ones that have that high degree of trust. And so you take out the jargon, or any of the lean stuff that is can be kind of off putting for folks and and a little uncomfortable at first. This is really common language that everybody can connect to that allowed us to then Springboard on top of that.

Katie:
That’s such an important thing that you just called out. And we’ve, we’ve explored this in some past episodes of the podcast, that, as you know, lean, transformational, continuous improvement leaders, we often get stuck in the lingo, and we are so excited by that, but that’s not what’s going to move the needle for leaders. It’s about understanding the business results that they need, the strategic goals, and then, and then putting in simple terms that are those continuous improvement terms, but it’s the enabler. Part of your role is helping the leaders set the strategy for the organization, and then make that connection to that how they’re going to do that. It’s such an important part of being a transformational change leader making that connection between strategic goals, mission, vision, values. How have you even more explicitly tying this concept of values to like the strategic goals of staying innovative, you know, of staying relevant for the organization, and continuing to connect that with the leadership behaviors? Yeah,

Cindy:
so I was really lucky in that so am Smith’s been around 150 years. Very strong sense of values, values handed down from the Smith family that we still carry today. And when you look at that, those compared with what you see from, you know, most TPS concepts very, very similar. Take care of the customer, value your people, innovation, concepts of profitable growth. So what I was able to do is then help them again, shift the language that may have people here out of Toyota, and shift it to our own internal language. With that then is okay, you’ve got these strategic priorities. They align with our values. Now let’s talk about how we break those down and socialize them so that we’ve got people more, people engaged. To be really honest, Katie, the people here at ao Smith were already very, very people focused, people centric. We have that’s part of who we are, and so I’m really, really lucky that I was in the right place at the right time here. They were just looking for, how do we do it better? How do we get more thoughtful and intentional? So as we start doing more and more of this strategic planning conversation and strategy execution, it was pretty natural to have those conversations. Like the first time I heard the concept of Nima washi, I was like, wow, we’ve been doing that for years, and I had no idea we socialize things so often as part of our culture. What my job really was was to institutionalize that they knew what was driving results, and they knew when they were getting results, and then. Just had to help them see that this is the formality we want to put around it so we can do it, not just occasionally, but all the time. I want

Katie:
to dive into that, because this is, you have this global scale. And so like, sometimes people think, oh, it’s maybe easier at one site. And also wanted to call out the word NEMA washi for people who may not know it. It means, it’s a Japanese term. It’s, it means to till the soil, so to, you know, prepare the situation for, you know, action or decision. So a lot of times socializing a concept before going to a meeting, like what Cindy said, too. I love that concept, though, to till the soil, get ready for those seeds to plant and grow and blossom. How do you or how have you been making progress towards really institutionalizing this across a global organization where people are coming from different cultural backgrounds. I know you’ve, you know, different companies have been absorbed into ao Smith, so had different corporate cultures coming in as well. I mean, that’s a huge challenge. It

Cindy:
is. It’s huge, and it’s never ending. And I wouldn’t say we’ve got that nut totally cracked yet. I would say we’re still working on it very much. I think part of it is what we’ve begun doing with our leadership development programs, where from Team Leader all the way up to Director of ops, we’ve been defining what are behaviors we expect, what are the roles and responsibilities you have, and then what would we say, are mature behaviors versus developmental behaviors, versus immature behaviors, laying that out, creating that clarity, and then training to that, not just in a classroom, but with mentors and with active action and team leader in training programs and supervisor in training programs, putting these in place, and even our plant manager development programs, when You have these in place, the experiences, plus the knowledge and then the practice, and then the mentor added to it. What we’ve done is we’ve been pushing that together such that we have someone when they exit that program that’s ready to hit the ground running on day one and be successful in that environment. So we’ve been building that out and spreading it across our sites. That’s

Katie:
such an incredible investment the organization is making in its leaders and people. And it’s exciting to hear that, because my experience is far too often, you know, and I’m hearing this a lot from other organizations, feeling the, you know, the cost cutting pressure we just got to, you know, focus everything on reducing but if we can actually level up our leadership, we’re going to be so much more effective. Yeah, well,

Cindy:
and that’s the thing, is that ao Smith, we’ve not been in an emergent situation. We don’t have a burning platform. What we have is long term strategic thinking in our leadership. We’ve had it for 150 years, right? And so they’re looking for the long term. They know we know how to cut costs. That’s not the issue. The issue is sustainability over the long term and meeting whatever business challenge comes at

Katie:
us. There’s a book that I love called tree ring management, and what you’re describing is that it’s about taking the long term view, and like growing a tree, steady, steady, steady, even through thick and thin, rings just keep growing and having that long term view, and unfortunately, too often businesses are held to more of that short term view. So helping leaders be able to get out of that trap is sounds like a real enabler, and not the issue at ao Smith as well,

Cindy:
right? Because it’s a balance. It’s not an either or, it’s an and you still have to deliver quarter over quarter, and you do it the right way with that long term vision.

Katie:
You and I’ve talked in the past about you’ve had the experience where leaders realize that maybe they have some conflicting values that they hold, or values that conflict between the organization and themselves. And if values are such that you know, the critical foundation for all of this success, how do you help leaders reconcile some of these emerging, conflicted values?

Cindy:
I think again, this is where my coach training really prepared me to have some of those conversations and be okay with whatever they came out with. It’s really begins to ask questions. It starts with asking those open ended questions. Tell me more about that. Help me understand what you’re struggling with, what’s stopping you from doing this next thing? Because usually, if there’s an emotional outburst or a reluctance to move forward, it’s because there’s a conflict that they haven’t figured out what it is yet. And just allowing that space to have them talk through and say, you know, I didn’t even think about it that way. But maybe that is why, or I’m worried about this, they get to have those conversations in a safe space, and then that allows them to process and move forward. And so I think it is being able to sit in silence while people really process, and knowing that it’s not mine to own. My job is to be here for them and whatever they come out with on the other side. And that’s a, again, it’s a it’s a skill that I didn’t have eight or 10 years ago. But I’ve really worked to helping the leaders that I work with have that space available to them, to be able to process that,

Katie:
holding the space, asking those provocative questions, and. And and holding up the mirror too to maybe things that you’re observing that they aren’t seeing from that angle as well. There’s so much more power than just telling them like you have to do this. This is the right way, but aligning that value. I remember when I was out in Nashville with you and some of the leaders that we did this, the purpose drawing exercise that I talk about in episode four of this podcast. And it’s always such an engaging, like, energizing experience. And I remember in reflection of, you know, so clear how people centered your leaders are. But a few of the leaders had this reflection of, like, oh, what I drew in my purpose isn’t necessarily how I’m totally showing up at work. And it was this really nice, you know, discussion point too. Of, maybe it’s not conflicting values, but are they truly aligning their behaviors at work with how they see their purpose in this world,

Cindy:
right? And bringing them whole their whole selves to work? I think that’s the thing. Is that oftentimes we feel like we’ve got to leave part of ourselves at home or away from the office because we’re not sure how that’s going to be received. There’s that underlying fear when they come to that AHA and realize that their values and how they live at home, those behaviors are exactly what we need, then what you see them is really get excited about coming in, really leaning into that idea of a leader as a coach. So many of those individuals, when we looked at their drawings, were like, what I want to do is help people. What I want to do is help them grow and be better. And you’re just like, exactly do that here. Let me help you do that here. And that is that value connection piece that I think sustains this type of transformation in the long term. People now see it as who they are and how they do work. I couldn’t

Katie:
have said it better who they are and how they do the work and who they are. And we do have this, like this universal human desire to help others, to make improvements, and when we can shift out of that mindset, it’s us having to do all of that, but our way of being and enabling. It’s just like and I see that as being a parent too. You know, you we talk about both being moms of kids, and how do we help foster and nurture our kids to grow? It’s the exact same thing. So we can bring all of our experiences in this world to make ourselves be more effective in the work environment as well. And as you said, going back to Covey’s concept of trust, if we can really show up with that humanity, we actually engender more trust. And when we’re not like the perfect leader that has to be buttoned up all the time, and I think that’s

Cindy:
what, I think that’s what people really begin to connect to in that program, is like, Oh, me putting up the facade or acting like I have to have all the answers, actually destroys trust. That’s not, that’s not what I meant for it to do. And it’s those ahas that allow them to say that’s a gap from where I want to be as a leader, yes.

Katie:
And I always talk about, you know, intention. It’s these, this Japanese symbol that’s behind me. It’s like, what’s the purpose that your purpose and and impact you want to have? And then what are the behaviors that are really get aligned with that, and sometimes there’s this disconnect, and when we can have that aha moment that enables us to really accelerate our own personal transformation. I know it was for for me when I realized how much of a teller I was and out of my own enthusiasm to like help people, but it’s having the opposite impact. So these personal ahas, as you started off this conversation with are so powerful to creating that systemic culture across an organization. You know, Cindy, you have this global role. You’ve talked about how you’re helping the leaders, but how, you know, how are you creating the system and maybe the enabling support the different coaches or, you know, support structures within the organization to really help sustain and grow this leadership behaviors across the entire system, it’s

Cindy:
tough, especially because it requires a skill set that you have to develop and practice over time. And so the same coaching program I went through, everybody on my team goes through after they’ve been with me for a year, and then our senior CI leaders in the business also go through that that allows us to have a coach embedded in each location that has that skill set, so not just the technical side, but then also this coaching technical side. So that’s one piece. The other piece is we’ve been working on what we’re calling a maturity model to help people understand what ideal looks like, and then be able to see what the gap to that ideal is, what their current condition is. That gives them clarity on different aspects, whether it is the tools they’re using, the managerial systems they have in place and behaviors, our philosophy, or even our people development piece. In addition to that, results are also a part of that. So it’s kind of a five stage process, but really focuses on behaviors and results together so that leaders can then see what their gap is. That allows them to say, Okay, now what I want to go after? How do I close that gap, and how do I ensure that the systems and process. Are in place to sustain that in the long term. So it’s all of those things wrapped together, but that maturity model gives us a framework that we can work within. It’s not a check the box exercise, yeah, you can’t pencil with this. So because we don’t call out a single tool in it, it’s not about that piece of it. It is about are you using the right tool for the right problem? Are you thinking through it? Is it systemic? Is it pervasive, or is it small and occasional? It’s those types of things that we want to be able to call out so we can see if we are being effective and that it’s allowing that site or those areas to be successful. From a business needs standpoint,

Katie:
don’t start with the tool. Is what I’m hearing like that. Don’t start with the tool. Yeah, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve? And then what are the behaviors and actions you need? And then pull in the tools to help you, to help you with that. That’s right. What’s 1p? Well, the two questions I have for you, first, like, you know, I’ve talked about when you are in a senior leadership role and owning so much. You know, whether or not you’re an operational executive or leading a global transformation like you are to, you know, you usually you’re a systems thinker, and you can see everything that needs to happen. You know, that’s a strength, but it can cause overwhelm. And you know that you can’t possibly do it all, you know, I’ve talked a lot about this is, you know, sort of a systemic challenge for, you know, passionate leaders. But how do you personally balance making progress that on all that you know needs to happen and you want to achieve without constantly feeling overwhelmed?

Cindy:
Oh yeah, it’s a it’s, it’s tough. It’s tough, right? This is it’s easy to get overwhelmed. So I think there’s a couple tactics. One is surrounding myself with a community of support. Has been a massive, massive benefit to me. Before, eight years ago, I was not involved in the broader Lane community, but at that point, I joined ame, I started getting involved with the champions club, and what I found were people in similar roles in businesses of different sizes, but people that were trying to do the same thing, and I could borrow their learning curve, or we could bat around ideas on how to address challenges, because nothing’s new under the sun. We’re all fighting the same fight, and if somebody’s this much further ahead in that space than I am, what can I learn from them? And how can I take that back, glean the lessons out of it, not copying and pasting, but understanding why they did what they did. And is that the same challenge I have? Or, hey guys, I have this challenge. What have you seen work? And why did that work? That community of support has been what kept me sane, what has kept me sane in the last eight years? Absolutely So highly recommend that piece of it. I think the other piece is breaking it down into smaller chunks, where you can say, you know, long term, I’m going to take that hill, but this year I want to take to that point, and then this quarter, I’m going to take it to this point and then keeping your eye on that prize that allows you to celebrate those successes that are so important. And in fact, my team and I have gotten to where we’ve broken it down into weekly wins. So every, every week, on Friday mornings, we do so we have daily huddles. And our daily huddles, you answer three questions, what are you grateful for today? What’s your one thing to accomplish and what support you need to make that happen? On Fridays, we do our win for the week, and when we do our win for the week, instead of our gratitude, we get to sing our own praises. We get to acknowledge our successes in the short term that says, you know, we all get to celebrate that with you. People normally are afraid to brag on themselves, and this gives them that permission to do that, and to say, Look what you did. You achieved that this week. You leave here on Friday morning, and you know that you’ve done good work this week. So I think those kind of things help keep the energy going, because it gets tough.

Katie:
Gratitude, reflection, celebration and that community of support to you know, as the Daruma says, you know, fall but the dream adult proverb, fall down seven times, get up eight having that community can really help you get up and continue forward. It’s huge. Well, Cindy, thank you so much for coming on chain of learning to share your insights from over 25 years of leading to create these high performing organizations. Your insights on the connection the values and behaviors as the way to get the business results. And thank you for being an important link in my chain of learning. I’ve loved partnering with you and getting to know you and dancing on the dance floor to some fun 80s music at the Shingo conference earlier in 2024 So Cindy and I discovered we have a similar passion for music as well as continuous improvement. 80s, new

Cindy:
way, all the way, all the way. Thanks, Katie, I really appreciate it. You.

Katie:
So lean and continuous improvement, transformations will fail if the principles and practices behind the tools aren’t embedded into the way the business is run and how leaders show up each and every day to support their people, to bring forward their best thinking, to solve problems and innovate, to get business outcomes. Transformational Leadership is not about focusing on the tools or being the expert with all the answers. It’s about connecting with your purpose and discovering that you can get more and better results when you can let go of being the doer and shift rather to being the enabler. It’s about what I call leading with intention, connecting with purpose, and aligning your actions in that direction to learn more about the purpose exercise that Cindy and I referenced in this episode, which I led some of her senior executives through in a recent Leadership Retreat, in which you can personally do to gain insights in your own purpose. Go back and listen to episode four of this podcast, and as we wrap up this episode, reflect and take action on what you’ve learned.

What are your key takeaways on the insights that Cindy shared about how she’s learned to lead change the right way, and how she’s grown from a continuous improvement Doer to a transformational change leader, one who balances their technical skills with the social and leadership skills needed to create sustainable change. These shifts that Cindy highlights reflect many of the competencies in my catalyst change leader model, including how to be a tactical, strategic aligner who can articulate a strategy that connects values, behaviors and purpose to organizational goals and outcomes, and becoming a transformational coaching leader who asks questions, holds space for reflection and creates the conditions for others to have aha moments that can transform themselves and that, in turn, can transform an organization. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to download my free catalyst change assessment that covers all eight competencies that you need to master to be an impactful change leader at Kbj anderson.com backslash catalyst, spelled with a K. And also go back and listen to episode nine of this podcast to learn more about each competency. Take the catalyst assessment and then choose one area that you want to work on, and then apply the process that Cindy uses with our team and suggested for you, first reflect on the one thing that you’re grateful for this week, maybe it’s listening to this podcast. Two, break down your bigger goal and choose one thing you want to accomplish or get better at this week. Three, identify what support you need for your practice, and then at the end of the week, reflect on what you accomplished and celebrate your weekly win, whether it was success in achieving your goal or it’s what you learned through the process. Please share your weekly wins with me on social media or send me a message. I’d love to celebrate your wins, big or small with you, if you’d like outside support or a positive boost of inspiration for you and your leaders to develop these leadership capabilities and relational skills needed to create a high performing organization. I’d be happy to help. I love supporting operational executives and change leaders like Cindy and you through designing and leading high impact leadership retreats and immersive learning experiences and being a behind the scenes trusted advisor to enable your growth and success. Reach out to me by my website, Kbj anderson.com, the links to connect with me and Cindy and other resources to support your learning are included in the full episode. Show Notes, I’m grateful to have a community of passionate change leaders in my community, like Cindy and like you. Thank you for tuning in and thanks for being the link in my chain of learning today, if you’re enjoying the podcast, be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player and share this episode with your friends and colleagues so we can all strengthen our chain of learning together. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day. Bye.