Why Change Initiatives Fail (And What You Can Do About It) with Michael Bungay Stanier

[00:00:00] Michael: Because even that language, they are resistors to change implies, look, I’m trying to change them and they’re resisting it. Dammit. Why can’t they, why can’t they behave? And so when you’re doing change to somebody, that’s also an act where you are denying a degree of agency. That they might have. So like, how do you create agency in the people you want to change?

[00:00:24] So you’re not doing it to them, but they are contributing and moving along with you.

[00:00:30] Katie: Welcome the chain of learning where the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you, to build a people centered learning culture, get results and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy.

[00:00:46] I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson. You’ve seen the statistics and you’ve probably felt the pain as a change leader, 70 to 90 percent of change initiatives fail. That’s a staggering number. And I hear it all the time from you and other operational excellence change leaders around the world.

[00:01:04] Enterprise lean transformations are derailed when new leadership comes on board, economic pressures rise, or the next flavor of the month comes around, process improvement initiatives show success, but don’t stick after you, the change practitioner move on to another project. Or you’re not even able to get started because you can’t get the buy in for the vision for what you know is possible.

[00:01:25] What’s happening and what can we do as change leaders to counteract this trend? To help, I invited Michael Bungay Stanier to the show. Michael’s the author of six books, which between them have sold more than a million copies. He’s best known for The Coaching Habit, which has already become a classic in the leadership coaching space.

[00:01:43] And his most recent book is How to Work with Almost Anyone. Michael’s at the forefront of shaping how organizations and leaders around the world succeed through fostering curiosity and human relationships. And his work has greatly influenced my own coaching and book writing practices. I was honored that Michael endorsed my book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn, when it came out nearly five years ago, and I was excited to invite him here to share his evolving thoughts about how we can leverage being more coach like and curious to lead change.

[00:02:12] If you’re a change leader or anyone who works with people in teams, you won’t want to miss this episode. As you listen in, reflect on both the questions and insights that spark the most learning for you. And at the end, you’ll hear both Michael and me model the way of learning and ask what Michael calls a learning question to each other.

[00:02:29] This type of question is one that I also encourage you to bring into all your conversations. You not only model the way as a learning leader, you and the person you’re asking questions to, or having conversations with can gain valuable insights, both about the power of questions and reflect on what you and they found helpful.

[00:02:48] Michael and I started off our conversation, exploring that 70 to 90 percent change failure rate, which Michael had cited to me in a podcast prep exchange, referring to it as a career limiting move for all of us who are in some ways leading organizational change. So I thought we’d start there. And we began our conversation with a question, what are some of the reasons Michael’s seeing for this failure rate of change initiatives?

[00:03:12] Let’s dive in.

[00:03:13] Michael: It’s depressing, isn’t it? I mean, it just occurred to me that it’s like for four decades, I’ve been watching McKinsey trot out the 70 percent statistic. I saw a thing from Bain recently saying 95 percent of digital transformations are going to fail. And I think of myself and, you know, I’ve.

[00:03:32] Play different roles and being involved in change and transformation in different ways over 30 years. I’m like, no wonder I’m so tired. It’s like, I’m almost destined to fail. Like you can be more successful being a baseball and they, you know, and they, they fail most of the time. But if you’re a change leader, you fail even more.

[00:03:53] And somehow it doesn’t feel like We, or at least maybe this is just me projecting. We do a great job of connecting the statistics that these consultancies and other people tell us and the day to day reality of our experience. And so I’m actually trying to figure that out. I’m going, okay, so why hasn’t that number shifted?

[00:04:12] Why is it still so hard? And for sure, there’s. External factors in this, like this, just the acceleration of life and everything. And, you know, it’s, it’s no news to anybody to say change seems to be happening faster and in a more complicated way and a more globally connected way in a more multi layered way.

[00:04:35] It’s like the good old days where you’re like, I’m just going to run a change project and then we’ll finish it. And then maybe get onto another one. You’re like, yeah, you know, In your dreams, like it’s got, it’s all of that going on. I suspect also there are some framing challenges to those of us who are lead change or involved in change that also get in our way as well.

[00:04:56] I would point to the two foundational ones that I wrestle with. One is. Understanding that for most change projects, you’re trying to create organizational change. So some sort of structural shift and also individual change, some sort of behavior change. And they’re both called change in the same way.

[00:05:17] Classical physics and quantum physics are both called physics. But like, quantum physics and classical physics are completely different. Everyone’s like, we don’t even really understand how these two things coexist, because they’re completely different at different scales. And I think the same is true with individual change and organizational change.

[00:05:37] And typically, most people have an expertise and a bias towards one or the other. You have some people who are like, I love my training and I love behaviors and I love habits and that’s what I try and do. And they’re a bit naive to organizational change. And other people are a bit, I’m pro on the, on the lean methodology or the organizational structure or OD or whatever.

[00:05:58] And they’re a bit naive around the human. Individual cost of change. So I think that’s one dynamic that can get in the way of success. And then I’ll just say one more, Katie, and then I’ll stop monologuing. The second dynamic is, you know, the language for this, I get from, um, Bob Keegan and Lisa Leahy’s book, immunity to change, um, who have their, who rely on Ron Heifetz’s work.

[00:06:26] technical change and adaptive change, which I, which I talk about is easy change and hard change. You know, easy change is the more mechanical. Look, if I, if I follow a good process, I would have a good structure. If your project manager and we have the right metrics, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll mostly get that sorted.

[00:06:42] Um, and that’s, That’s hard, hard enough to do. Easy change is hard, but hard changes, um, more emergent, more below the waterline, more in the darkness. And that’s more elusive. And actually, with both individual and organizational change, you have different elements of easy and hard change as well. And it’s very few of us who Understand all of that and I’m really competent at all of that and I think that also contributes to why change is just so hard to get right.

[00:07:16] Katie: So much in there, Michael, that we can unpack. I like in sort of some of what you said here of that technical change, the maybe some of that’s more easy. It’s like, let’s do some process improvement. Let’s do a project, the spot improvements, but it’s not really sticking. And that’s because many times maybe people haven’t addressed the individual change, that the behaviors that have to support the process change.

[00:07:38] So for you lean practitioners out there who are looking at like improving process, we also have to have the people component around it as well. And that’s, and how do we link those two

[00:07:49] Michael: project management? Is a change discipline i’ve been involved in projects with bad project managers and good project managers and i know which one i prefer like a really good project manager makes all the difference but it’s necessary but not sufficient because you know if you’re doing process improvement show you have to also think about individual change you also have to think about.

[00:08:10] The power and the politics that are going on in terms of how does power really work in this organization? And how have we got that understood? And you’ve also got to think about not just what are the new behaviors you want from people, how are you helping people let go of what they used to do so they can move on to what they need to do next?

[00:08:32] There’s often not enough time given to, you know, the ritual of grieving the, the, the left behind past.

[00:08:41] Katie: Yeah. So we hear, we hear about like this resistance that people are resistors to change, but we all have that human emotion. And so how do we support that process of grieving or moving through to the, to the next stage to embrace the change?

[00:08:54] Michael: Because even that language, they are resistors to change implies, look, I’m trying to change them and they’re resisting it. Damn it. Why can’t they, why can’t they behave? Um, And so when you’re doing change to somebody, that’s also an act where you are denying a degree of agency that they might have. So like, how do you create agency in the people you want to change?

[00:09:19] So you’re not doing it to them, but they are contributing and moving along with you, which of course is like in a perfect world, that’d be amazing. But that then makes everything messier and harder. Cause now you’re like, Consider these other stakeholders and you’ve actually got to understand their resistance and you’ve got to understand their grief.

[00:09:38] And you’ve got to understand just how strong the gravity of the status quo is. I think we, as change people, we often just underestimate just how. strongly we are placed in the way things are right now. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a heavier gravity than we realize.

[00:09:58] Katie: Well, and when we’re leading change, we’re out there in the front, right?

[00:10:01] And so we have to remind ourselves, like we all have experienced change that’s sort of done to us, or maybe it is something we didn’t want. So how do we keep that empathy, uh, in helping people move, move forward? And I really appreciate that you called out Michael, the, the power politics, and it’s so important to be able to navigate that we think of.

[00:10:19] Uh, politics is this, you know, sort of bad word, which it can be, but good politics is about how do we, how do we align and bring people together? How do we understand those power dynamics? And if we aren’t able to do that, we’re really missing an important component of how to be successful as a change leader.

[00:10:35] Michael: That’s right. I mean, in my experience, People will just have some elements of what’s required for change. And they’ll go, I really don’t like that part of it. I don’t like the marketing of this. Like I’m in Canada. So we’ve all been watching the US election over the, you know, from a couple of weeks ago without wanting to make this political.

[00:10:56] I think, and this is in my inside, I took this from a guy called Don Miller, who’s stuff I admire. And I’ll quote Don, that way we can blame Don for any way this blows up. He’s like, I don’t like either of these candidates. He said, and Donald Trump had a better story than Kamala Harris. And. He is a better marketer than the Democrats were.

[00:11:21] And regardless of whether you, what, what story you buy into, it’s the power of having a really great story. So like, if you’re not, you can’t go, I just hope I can build it. And they will come. I hope them, I don’t need to worry about the marketing. You’re like, you’re going to make this change be appealing enough that people are like, Actually, I might actually shift something because of the way you’re framing this and some people are like, I love this stuff, man.

[00:11:46] Give me, give me headlines. Give me copywriting. I love the insight that people buy medicine. They don’t buy vitamins. So how do I acknowledge the pain point to help them shift? And some people go, uh, marketing. Oh, that’s not for me. I don’t like selling. I’m not a selling person. And it’s like, whatever it is, it might be politics.

[00:12:04] It might be the messiness of grief. It might be marketing. It might be the nuance of training and behavior change. Typically we’ve all got some part where we’re like, Oh, I don’t like that bit so much, but if you don’t take it on, you become more vulnerable to your chain project not being as successful as it might be.

[00:12:22] Katie: I recently talked to Derek Roberts on an earlier episode of this podcast and we were talking about the way to get buy in. is actually about listening rather than telling. And this brings us, you know, really to so much of the crux of your, many of your books around the coaching habit and how do we stay curious a little bit longer rather than just telling, telling, telling.

[00:12:43] And so much of my work too, I talk about we need to break the telling habit. How do you see this link between that personal change of getting out of this, you know, advice monster mode that you say and telling and listening more and then. How that can help us be more effective, either crafting stories or creating a compelling reason for change.

[00:13:03] Michael: Well, I think it does two possible things. The first thing about, and the behavior I encourage in people is can you just stay curious a little bit longer? And can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? So in other words, advice and action, uh, totally good and totally appropriate.

[00:13:23] And can you just get there a little more slowly because your ability to stay curious longer will serve you. And it serve you in two ways. First of all, it will help you actually figure out what the real challenge is. Almost always what you think is the real challenge isn’t the real challenge. It’s just the first challenge.

[00:13:44] And you’re seduced into thinking that the first thing that shows up is the real thing. And if you can have as a working principle, the first thing is probably not the real thing. So what if I stayed curious a little bit longer and got really clear about what’s the real challenge here for you, then you’re going to be solving the right thing.

[00:14:04] Rather than the first thing, the second thing is the more curious you can stay and the longer you can stay curious, the more likely you are to connect human to human, to the other person. And if you’re doing that, you’re creating, you’re just helping to remind yourself that this is another human being that I’m working with, and they might be representing other human beings.

[00:14:28] And you’re less likely to go, right. I’m just going to do change to them because they’re a faceless. Name a number, and I’m more likely to go. All right. How am I going to co create change with them? So organizations in the end have this twin DNA of strategy and culture, what we do and who we are. And curiosity allows you to get clear about what we should be doing.

[00:14:52] So we’re doing the smarter thing and it allows you to bring out the best of the people who are there. So you’re better able to have the better people do the right thing. So your culture and your strategy strengthened with curiosity.

[00:15:05] Katie: I a hundred percent agree with you. And I love that link to what I call being versus was doing, and we need to focus on that human element so that we can be more effective to collaborating and doing the doing, you know, and, and.

[00:15:18] As you’re talking to, I could see a link for how do we help people solve problems, right? So how do we stay curious and not just make the assumption that what they’re coming forward is the challenge. And I see this so often, I’ve been doing a lot of trainings around the world and helping people coach for problem solving.

[00:15:36] And they just want to move into the like, let’s ideate on solutions without it. Staying in that mode of really helping someone understand what’s the real problem? What’s the real challenge to solve? Right?

[00:15:45] Michael: And honestly, solutions are so easy to come by.

[00:15:49] Katie: Yeah, yeah. The hard part’s the problem.

[00:15:51] Michael: Exactly. Like AI.

[00:15:52] I mean, years ago, Einstein apparently said, Look, if I had an if I had an hour to solve the problem, I’d spend 57 minutes figuring out what the real problem was in two minutes coming up with the solution. And that was it. Before ChatGPT. Now there’s ChatGPT. So pretty much anything you want a solution to, you can just find it.

[00:16:13] It takes you about 10 keystrokes. So stop thinking that the way you add value is through your ideas. Because, not really, the way you add value is the discipline to figure out what’s really going on, what’s the real challenge.

[00:16:26] Katie: If we bring this back to this concept of how we’re leading change and that statistic, you know, so how, how do we reverse this trend?

[00:16:34] You know, we, we, we know we need to stay curious a bit longer, we need to not jump You know, just to the telling and to the doing, but we also need to move forward. So what are you seeing with either the clients you’re working with or the stories you’re hearing from the trenches?

[00:16:48] Michael: Well, you know, I’ve been, uh, you know, I’ve, I’ve got this new, uh, new project brewing around, around change, which I’m pretty excited about.

[00:16:56] And I’ve been talking to change practitioners, change leaders. So I’ve spoken to about 20 of them over the last couple of months. And I’m really going, what are you up against? And most of them. Are saying you just got to go slower to go faster and effectively what I hear is a really common theme across all of the people I’ve been speaking to is you have to spend more time with the powers that be the hierarchy, the politics of it all to figure out who’s my sponsor.

[00:17:27] What do they really care about? Where’s their resistance within that senior leadership or whatever that sponsorship group might be? Where are we going to be? Pardon my French, screwed over by the leadership team, because we’ve all been screwed over by leadership teams one way or another. And we’ve got to spend more time understanding what what’s the people who are going to change are really up against and what will get in the way of them actually doing the change.

[00:17:53] And if you can spend space there, human connection, curiosity, then what you end up doing. Is more, it just becomes clearer around what, what’s the useful thing to be doing.

[00:18:05] Katie: What I’m hearing in there too, is the importance of those senior leaders who actually have the ownership for the change. Cause you, as the change agent actually might not really be responsible for the change.

[00:18:16] So how are you influencing them both on that behavior level? So that personal side, which you talked about, but then how are they creating the organizational structures to enable that change to happen?

[00:18:27] Michael: I mean, one of the, one of the classic famous models of management and self management is the one that talks about control and influence and no control and no influence.

[00:18:40] So imagine concentric circles. And in the middle is the little bit around what can I can control? Um, then the circle outside that is what can I influence? And then the circle beyond that is what can I neither control nor influence? And the core insight to this little, uh, tool model is. You get stressed out because of misattributing where things go.

[00:19:06] And the key insights are this, you have far less control over everything than you think. You basically have control around what you choose to do and what you choose to say. You don’t even have control over how you feel. You feel how you feel, you react, but then you get to choose what to do with that feeling.

[00:19:24] You don’t, you don’t get much, you get to choose where you put your time and attention a little bit. You have far more influence than you realize. And most people are underestimating and underutilizing the influence that they have. And then you, it’s really helpful to understand what you need to have control nor influence over because it’s like, stop stressing about that.

[00:19:47] Because what’s the point? You have no control or influence over this thing, so it is what it is. So, you know, direct that energy that is connected to stress back to the things that you can control and back to the things that you can influence.

[00:20:00] Katie: I appreciate hearing that, like, we have more influence than we think we do.

[00:20:04] But that feels very frustrating, I’m sure, for some people, because they’re like, But I’m, I’m trying to be more influential, but I’m not necessarily seeing the impact how, what are some steps people can take to really embrace that influence and truly have that impact that they’re wanting to have when leading change?

[00:20:20] Michael: It depends, but where I might think about it is. I would be going, what does success truly look like for me? It’s like, in other words, asking and answering that difficult question, what do I want? What do I really want? It’s one of the questions from the coaching habit and I love it, but I ask it less commonly than I do the other six questions because it’s actually a pretty hard question.

[00:20:46] What do I want? Because once you understand what you want, That immediately eliminates a whole bunch of fake activity that you might, you, you can make up to make it look like you’re doing stuff, but you’re like, what, what does success really look like here? And then I would be mapping because influence comes through other people.

[00:21:06] So now you’re like, okay, so how, if I don’t have that much control, who, how do I get what I want through other people? And I’d be being more specific, more cold blooded about analyzing the people around you and the relationships you have to go, who can get me what I want? Who can connect me to who I want?

[00:21:28] And I remember years ago, uh, doing some work in a big pharmaceutical company around this around change. And we, we mapped out our ecosystem of relationships and everybody was allowed to have two, a list relationships. I think three B list relationships. And that was it. So there was a grand total of five relationships that you could choose and actively.

[00:21:56] Participate in trying to increase your strength and increase your influence. And there was a lot of forced choice there because most of us try and have too many relationships and we under work those relationships. I’m like, if you can only, if you’ve only got two a listers and three B listers, I’m like, And you need to spend two hours a day working those relationships.

[00:22:23] Have you done everything you can to build your influence and your credibility and your relationship with those people? And my guess is for most people, the answer is no.

[00:22:31] Katie: How did you define the A list and the B list relationships?

[00:22:35] Michael: I didn’t, I kind of, um, I let them figure that out for themselves. I just created a.

[00:22:41] false hierarchy to say, look, you know who your A listers are. They’re the ones who are most likely to get you to the success that you want. And your B listers are your kind of the second tier of people who are most likely to get you to your, your, your list. But really I’m going, pick your, pick your top five and then tell me who your top two are in that top five.

[00:23:01] Katie: Well, this brings us to your most recent book of how to work with almost anyone.

[00:23:07] Michael: Yeah. Well,

[00:23:08] Katie: as you’re talking, I have a few of your books on my desk cause I have them all. Thank

[00:23:11] Michael: you.

[00:23:12] Katie: Um, you know, I was, I was rereading this book recently on a flight back from Japan, you know, it was really taken how it all comes back to that, you know, where it started with the coaching habit, curiosity and, and building connections.

[00:23:24] So how can you leverage some of. What you talk about in this book for, for really mastering that influence that you were just talking about

[00:23:33] Michael: the key idea and how to work with almost anyone is that your happiness and your success, uh, in an outweighed way, driven by the quality of your working relationships.

[00:23:44] And you know, this to be true, you think about some of the toughest working relationships you’ve had. And how that whole experience has sucked badly. It doesn’t matter how good the project might have been. If you have a really bad working relationship, it taints the whole experience. And when you think about your really great working relationships, how elevated that was, how you’re like, that was cool.

[00:24:04] I really liked working with that person. And again, it didn’t even really matter what you’re working on. It could have been kind of pretty ordinary stuff, but you’re like, but we had, we had a blast doing it. And for most people, They don’t do much about that. They pray to the gods, roll the dice, cross their fingers, you know, dot the eye of a, of a doll.

[00:24:26] You know, there’s all sorts of ways of, of hoping, but I’d like people to more actively shape their working relationships because I want them to build BPRs, the best possible relationship with those key people, not all working relationships can be amazing, but all of them can live up to their potential.

[00:24:45] BPRs, best possible relationship. Relationships that are safe, psychological safety, vital, psychological bravery, and repairable, fixable as well, because every relationship gets dinged and cracked and dented a little bit. And the suggestion in the book is to, once you figure out who your key people are, have a keystone conversation with them.

[00:25:07] In other words, a conversation about how should we best work together before we work together. You know, how do we focus on the how before we plunge into the what? And what happens most of the time is we plunge into the what, because Because of there and that’s what we’ve been doing our whole lives and that’s why we’re having the meeting and that’s what the metrics measure and because it’s urgent and it’s exciting or it’s a crisis we are always pulled into the what and we kind of go well hopefully, hopefully this works itself out.

[00:25:39] Exactly. And doing the work doesn’t give you safe or vital or repairable. You need to more actively say, Hey, Katie, you and me, we’re going to be working on this thing together. I’ve made up a whole bunch of stuff about you already. You made up a whole bunch of stuff about me, but why don’t we talk about what’s the best way for us to understand and play to our strengths, understand and avoid our weaknesses, understand what it will take for us to kind of keep working through the hard times.

[00:26:06] And once you got that clear. Then let’s turn our attention to the project at hand. So we can bring our best selves to that work.

[00:26:13] Katie: It’s so powerful. My, my mom’s a therapist. So I grew up in this, like, let’s talk about our, let’s talk about it. And I was kind of surprised when I went to the working world to realize, Oh, that’s not the model that everyone has, but we’re also like, you know, we can be avoidant of having those, you know, Conversations that might feel challenging or vulnerable as well.

[00:26:31] Michael: Oh, yeah, because this is a conversation that is a not that common. So a bit awkward, you know, like, how do I do that? I don’t have a whole lot of practice or role modeling. And that requires a degree of self awareness. And that invites a degree of vulnerability. And there’s all sorts of ways you can argue yourself out of the need to have that conversation.

[00:26:53] You know, somebody once said, I think this, this conversation, I can see it’s usefulness, but it feels a bit weird. And I’m like, well, I think weird is knowing that your happiness and your success is driven by the quality of your working relationships and then doing nothing about it. So it is not common. My goal would be to try and make this a little bit more common.

[00:27:13] Um, so that. That going, Hey, Katie, I want to work with you. I’m looking forward to this project we’re on. How should we best do that so that we have the most chance of success in the work that we do?

[00:27:24] Katie: It’s the conversation that is so voided. I see a big challenge change leaders, or when I was working internally in organizations and now, you know, for the last 10 plus years, I’ve been consulting.

[00:27:34] I, when. People say, oh, the project didn’t work or there was a process breakdown. We go back and say, you know, did you have like a contracting conversations comes back from Peter block and it’s, it’s not, this would be like the next level, but did you even clarify your roles and expectations of how you were going to work together?

[00:27:51] And when we avoid that conversation, it’s, it leads to so many potentially bad results, and maybe this is part of the reason that change initiatives fails, because we’re not having those conversations up front.

[00:28:03] Michael: Well, I think that can be one of the reasons. I mean, you’re, you’re quite right. This book, How to Work with Almost Anyone, is my attempt to make Peter Block’s idea and work around social contracting just feel more accessible and more tangible and more, more practical for, for folks.

[00:28:19] You know, often when people go, the process broke down, what that means is the process broke and we didn’t have a relationship that was able to fix the process.

[00:28:28] Katie: One way that I have found really helpful and, and. Is how to make things visible and maybe this could be an entry point to for having that conversation.

[00:28:36] I ask people in workshops or if they’re in teams are working together to draw their purpose or what’s important to them. And then they do almost like speed dating and going around and they realize there’s all this human connection and we’ve We usually start introductions, like, what’s your name? What’s your role?

[00:28:51] Like, how long have you been in the organization? And we, we stay stuck in that, the things we need to be doing rather than this human connection.

[00:28:59] Michael: It’s very, very transactional. Like the first question in, in how to work with almost anyone is the question, what’s your best. And it’s designed to transcend.

[00:29:09] What can you do? What’s your role? What? What certificates do you have? It’s really asking when you when you shine and when you flow when you’re in that moment. Um, but you know, even a simpler question, it’s not simpler, but it’s an introductory question. Sometimes when I’m hosting a dinner party or something, I’ll ask people to say, answer the question.

[00:29:29] What are two essential things about who you are? And everybody goes, what do you mean by essential? I’m like, exactly, you figure that out. It’s like, I don’t know, it changes. Like sometimes I go, well, today my two essential things are, but typical people don’t go, well, the most essential thing about me is that I’m the assistant vice president of operational excellence at a bank.

[00:29:52] They’re like, no, mate, this is what’s most essential about who I am.

[00:29:55] Katie: Yes. It’s that human connection that, how do we start with that heart, the being, and then, and so much about the doing. If you had one recommendation for how to get started on these conversations and to increase influence and like, what would be the one place to get started?

[00:30:11] Michael: The one place to get started is to pick the one person with whom you’d like this to happen with, because all of this stuff can feel a bit up in the air and abstract. And, um, it happens kind of One person, one email, one conversation at a time. So who’s the person who you might think to yourself? This is the one person where they influence my happiness and success.

[00:30:36] And, um, maybe I could try this, some of the stuff out with them. It might be somebody you’re already really close to. You’re like, great. We already have a good working relationship and they’re pretty safe. It could be a person where you’re like. That influenced my happiness and success, but the relationship’s a little transactional.

[00:30:52] So if it goes south, it doesn’t actually matter that much. It might be a person where you’re like, this working relationship is a disaster. It is, it is, you know, on fire and it can’t get any worse. So I may as well try it with them because, you know, even if it’s 10 percent better, it’s 10 percent better than a disaster.

[00:31:10] So that’s an improvement as well.

[00:31:11] Katie: Thank you for that. Uh, Advice. You have a book, how to begin, and clearly you’re beginning something new. So can you share with my audience, the new thing that you are beginning?

[00:31:21] Michael: Yeah. So in February, uh, 2025, uh, mid February, I’m launching a new podcast called change signal, and the goal of change signal is to cut through the blather and the BS and the noise so that we can find the good stuff that works in change management.

[00:31:38] So it’ll be, it’ll be a newsletter and a podcast, and it’ll be a really Tightly curated conversation where I find for you the really best thinkers in all of this space, I get them to explain really clearly how to use and do the tools or the insights that they’re bringing. And also I get to talk to sort of leading change practitioners to share their stories, show us their scars, kind of collect their wisdom as well.

[00:32:05] So my goal is that it will be this curated. experience full of really practical stuff so that if you’re a change leader, you increase the odds of your success.

[00:32:16] Katie: Awesome. Well, I know I will be tuning in regularly and encourage all my listeners to do that too. Uh, Michael, I’m so grateful for you to come on the show.

[00:32:25] You’ve been an inspiration to me, both from writing my book and I appreciate your endorsement of learning to lead, leading to learn and all your writing and your, your speaking, what you put out there has really helped influence me to become a better person, a better change leader and a better consultant.

[00:32:42] So thank you for sharing.

[00:32:43] Michael: That’s really generous of you. Thanks, Katie.

[00:32:45] Katie: You’re welcome, Michael. Oh, I had forgot. I had one final question because I do this too. And it’s something that you always talk about that we have to leave and with the learning question, right? So that’s right. What was one question that was helpful or thought provoking for you here today?

[00:33:01] Michael: If, if I’m most honest about it, it’s really helpful for me to, you know, the very last question you just asked me about what’s the new project about learning how to speak about it. And listening to me speak about it and going, am I persuaded by that? Does that even sound useful or interesting for people?

[00:33:18] You know, when you, when you start a new project, you’re a little tentative about, you know, does this answer a problem? Does it solve a problem in the world? So I’m kind of finding my way into it. What, what was most useful or valuable for you?

[00:33:31] Katie: There were two things. One was a question you asked me before we started recording, which was what problem am I solving through leading my Japan study trip tours?

[00:33:40] And, you know, I had an answer for that, but it was the same way. It was important to articulate that and connected with you. I really appreciated our conversation going into the concept of influence and how this is a very. important aspect if we want to be successful in leading change, either personally or professionally.

[00:33:58] And a lot of the skills that we often get overlooked because we’re so focused on the technical side of process improvement or organizational excellence that we really need to be focused on those influence skills, what I call my, my catalyst model, but it’s, We have to focus on the human connection, the being, um, and all of that.

[00:34:19] So I really appreciated the nuances you brought to that. And I really look forward to hearing what the listeners have to say and reflect on from that as well. Me

[00:34:26] Michael: too. Me too.

[00:34:27] Katie: Well, I officially say, we’ll say goodbye and thank you again, and I’ll be tuning in and thank you again, Michael. My

[00:34:32] Michael: pleasure.

[00:34:33] Katie: Wow.

[00:34:34] There are so many incredible insights here in this conversation to help you set up the change initiatives and transformations that you’re leading for greater success, it’s time to shift the percentage failure rate. to a success rate. Let’s close the gap by understanding the root causes between the change we envision and what actually happens in reality.

[00:34:53] And let’s leverage what is working for those changes that stick and are making a positive impact to help us. So how can you more successfully lead change? As Michael highlighted here, it’s about ensuring a focus on both the structural change and the individual behavior change. And it’s about focusing on how you can amplify your influence.

[00:35:15] Rather than being frustrated by what you can’t actually control, reflect on Michael’s suggestions about how you can become more effective as a change leader and start with identifying that one key person that you need to have a successful working relationship with to impact the change that you’re leading.

[00:35:32] Invite them to have a conversation with you and start talking about your relationship and how you can work best together. For some guidance on this, check out Michael’s book, how to work with almost anyone, where he goes through five key questions to ask and how to approach this keystone conversation.

[00:35:49] And be sure to tune in to Michael’s new podcast, change signal, which is aimed just at helping change leaders like you and me. You can find out more and sign up for Michael’s newsletter and podcasts at change signal. com. I’ll put the links in the show notes. As Michael and I explored here, growing your relational and influence skills and maintaining a focus on the human element of change is critical to your success as a change leader, in addition to your technical skills and expertise.

[00:36:15] If you’re looking for additional resources to help you as a change leader and lean practitioner step into greater influence, I’ve created the Catalyst Model, which highlights eight key areas. Competencies that are essential for you to master to lead change, which I explore in episode nine. And if you haven’t already done so, be sure to download my free catalyst self assessment that covers all of these eight competencies at kbjanderson.

[00:36:38] com backslash catalyst spelled with a K. You can also go back and listen to some past episodes where I dive deep into several of these competencies, including some that I mentioned in the conversation with Michael, such as episode 14, where Betsy Jordan shares insights on how to become an astute political navigator by understanding the power dynamics in your organization.

[00:36:58] And episode 19, where Derek Roberts and I talk about how to get buy in and master the art of persuasion. And then by better listening and leading with curiosity. And if you want to go and try that purpose drawing to augment your keystone conversations, go back and listen to episode four, where I share how to do it, we’ll put the links to all these episodes and other resources that can help you in the full episode show notes.

[00:37:20] If you’re enjoying the show, please be sure to rate and review it on your favorite podcast player and be sure to follow and subscribe now. So you never miss an episode. Thanks for being a link in my chain of learning today. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day.