Doing More Isn’t the Answer: Why Simple Wins with Lisa Bodell

[00:00:00] Lisa: Leaders are mandating to their teams that you must take a half day or more a week to carve out for deep work and you have to put it on your calendar and block it. That sends a few signals. One, that leadership says, I’m not just asking you, I’m telling you and mandating for you to make thinking a priority.

[00:00:19] Katie: Welcome to Chain of Learning, where the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people centered learning culture, get results, and expand your impact, so that you and your team can succeed. Can leave a lasting legacy.

[00:00:35] I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast Katie Anderson. Do you ever feel burnt out by how much is on your plate or that you’re running from meeting to meeting so that you don’t even have a few minutes to think for yourself? Let alone ask questions to your team members to help them think more deeply.

[00:00:52] Maybe the problem isn’t that you’re not working hard enough, but that you’re stuck in a complexity trap that is keeping you and your team members from doing the work that really matters. To help you understand how you can escape this trap and apply simplicity as an operating principle to eliminate this waste and busy work that often keeps you from spending time on work that’s meaningful, I invited Lisa Bedell to the show.

[00:01:17] Lisa’s the CEO of FutureThink and bestselling author of Why Simple Wins and Kill the Company. Lisa’s ranked as one of the top 50 speakers worldwide, and through her messages about simplification, collaboration, and innovation, she helps organizations transform performance by reimagining their work. Lisa believes that when the most important work isn’t getting done, it’s not the people that need to be fixed.

[00:01:41] It’s the work. We started off our conversation exploring a challenge that I hear you and clients around the world share with me. You’re in the business of improvement to make processes more efficient, eliminate waste, lead innovation and problem solving, catalyze culture change. And yet you often feel overwhelmed with so much to do, so many meetings, so many priorities, so many emails to respond to that you and your leaders don’t have time to actually do this important improvement work.

[00:02:09] So I asked Lisa. What’s going on and how can we fix it? Let’s dive in.

[00:02:15] Lisa: It is interesting because things just keep getting more complex, no matter how many tools we have. Right. And that’s because we really value more. All right, then we get more free time and we fill it because I think people have always confused.

[00:02:27] Organization with simplification. And for the people listening, I would bet that they’re all very, they’re high achievers. They’re very organized. They’re into transformation and change and all that, because they’re your listeners, they are confusing being organized with being simplified. And those are different.

[00:02:47] So, for example, Marie Kondo, right, the beauty of what she did with helping people in their homes get simplified is she got rid of things, she didn’t just organize all the crap in your closet, she got rid of the stuff that didn’t matter, right? You know, so, she’s really looking at everything and being like, are you really ever going to wear these jeans again?

[00:03:04] Really? Really? And getting rid of it so you could focus on the stuff that really gave you joy. And I laugh with people and say, you know, you’re not going to look at every report and every email and be like, does this give me joy? But you’re going to think about, right. It’s not just about putting them in folders, but it’s trying to weed the garden on an ongoing basis.

[00:03:20] So I guess what I’m trying to say is for people, you can organize all you want, but until you start to practice subtraction, your life is not going to get easier. There will be no space. In your life until you do that,

[00:03:32] Katie: that’s the key. What I’m hearing from people. I don’t have space to do all the work and all the things and just feeling that overwhelm and pressure because we know about simplifying as it relates to, you know, going in and making a process more efficient, but We’re not simplifying as it relates to doing the actual work day to day in our own work.

[00:03:51] Lisa: Because we’re organizing, right? We think that by organizing, right, it’s a 12 step process, and it’s on paper, and we can all see it, and we feel very good about it. And that’s how, that’s our way of getting our hands around it, right? Getting a level of comfort and control. That’s what organizing gives you, control.

[00:04:05] But it doesn’t give you space, necessarily. And so the real control is when you have space not just to do, but to think. One of the things I want everyone to do here is start practicing subtraction. So they have to not just create a 12 step process, but then get rid of the things within the process, right?

[00:04:21] So I think that there’s a fundamental behavioral shift that has to happen. Getting comfortable with less. You are still valuable. If you’re not busy all the time, you are still valuable if you’re only doing a few key important things versus 20 things every day. That’s a, that’s a mental shift for a lot of people.

[00:04:37] Katie: I heard you say somewhere that thinking is a daring act. I think maybe in your TED talk. And I love that concept because it’s like we aren’t Daring to create the space in our calendar to do the thinking. When I lead workshops with, with people, I talk about, okay, we need to ask more questions and we need to, you know, have some space for reflection and thinking.

[00:04:55] And everyone’s like, Oh, I don’t know how to do that. And then we do like a practice session of 10 minutes. And I’m like, think about this. You could do just. 10, 10 minutes a day, and they’re like, Oh, maybe, and it’s just like, we don’t value that time, but we know we need to have it. And it is a daring act.

[00:05:11] Lisa: It is a daring act because when we think about it that way, it’s kind of like to me, the difference of innovation and simplification.

[00:05:16] When we say we’ve got to take 10 minutes, that’s adding something to my list of things to do. And the only way I’m going to change that habit is if I take away something else. Right. So I want people not to add in more practices. I need them to first take away something first, because otherwise it will be overwhelming and it won’t stick.

[00:05:33] It’s kind of like, I’m going to start going to the gym. No, you’re not because you don’t have any time to do it until I get rid of something. I’m going to, uh, I’m going to feel like a trade off can be made rather than adding to my plate. Now, thinking is a, your bigger thing was about thinking, right?

[00:05:48] Thinking is a daring act because we’re addicted to doing it’s a dopamine hit. We feel importance, right? Um, thinking is. Either feels or is perceived as lazy. You’re just sitting around and thinking, God, I wish I could just sit around and think you must not be important if you’re not busy all the time, right?

[00:06:04] But actually, how do you drive strategy if you’re not thinking? So we need to stop thinking about it as like just, you know, being lazy and sitting around and, um, thinking of it as deep work. And so a big trend that’s happening right now in my organization, Mastercard, Accenture, Google, is leaders like myself are mandating to their teams that you must Take a half day or more a week to carve out for deep work and you have to put it on your calendar and block it that sends a few signals one that leadership says I’m not just asking you I’m telling you and mandating for you to make thinking a priority to I’m not telling you to hide it on your calendar anymore.

[00:06:46] It is up front on your calendar that is deep work and three you’re making it actually a behavior change so you know I laugh with people because I’ll say how many of you have ever snuck thinking time. on your calendar by putting a fake meeting on there and everyone raises their hand, right? Why? Why do you have to, like, fake a meeting?

[00:07:05] Oh, I’m busy because I want to seem busy, but really I’m just, I’m thinking, don’t tell anybody. We’ve got to change that. And Liz starts with leaders.

[00:07:12] Katie: Starts with leaders and holding ourselves accountable to that. And I think I, at least I’ve noticed even in myself, I put a ton of thinking time on my calendar and then clients are like, Oh, I’d love to meet and here and that.

[00:07:22] And it’s like, I think it’s the same way as like you need a buddy sometimes to go to the gym and build that habit. It’s like we don’t even respect our own time as much as we respect that of others.

[00:07:31] Lisa: That’s exactly right. And that, that’s something that I think is really important. There’s a, you know, at Kickstarter, I met the ex chief people officer.

[00:07:39] Her name was Myton from Kickstarter. And it was interesting when they were rolling out a four day work week, it wasn’t about getting more out of people in four days. It was, how do we help you preserve your fifth day? And by doing that, they rolled out a program called Time Crime. And it is a crime to steal someone’s time.

[00:07:58] And so, it’s not okay. I mean, I get it if a client calls and all that stuff. But it’s not okay with each other. That we feel that we can just take things on their calendar. It’s not okay for you to steal my time, and if you do, you better have a really good reason for it. And if I do take that time and I come to your meeting and it’s crap, I’m not coming again.

[00:08:17] So it just kind of changed the paradigm around how we think about ours and others time. We give it away too freely. So the goal is putting boundaries. That’s really the goal.

[00:08:27] Katie: I love that reframe too of, you know, it’s that’s that deep thinking time is actually where the innovation is happening. It’s not like I’m just la la lying around either.

[00:08:36] And, and that’s the meaningful work of a lot of leaders. It’s like thinking strategically, thinking about deep problems.

[00:08:42] Lisa: But this is the thing is I say, everyone tells us. Everyone says, every leader, Oh, we really value thinking here. We have the smartest people. Well, one, you’re not using them because they have no time to think.

[00:08:52] If you ask people, do you wish you had more time to think? Everyone raises their hand because they don’t have any time to think. And then how do they get their thinking time? They hide it on their calendar or they do it outside of working hours. When I ask people, when and where do you do your best thinking?

[00:09:06] What do you think they say? Like, where do you do your best thinking, for example?

[00:09:10] Katie: On a walk or sitting quietly, you know, and just letting my space not be interrupted. Yes. 100

[00:09:16] Lisa: percent. I have never had anybody Say that they do their best thinking on a team’s call, checking email, and they never basically they never say at work what they do say is when it’s quiet, when they’re alone outside of working hours.

[00:09:31] And the reason I’m saying that is we are not doing our best thinking at work. That is a problem. And so we have to change our relationship with time and our relationship with thinking, and we have to value both of them more. That is really what makes people transformative.

[00:09:45] Katie: So how can people outside of being senior leaders setting, you know, saying, we’re going to do this, start making inroads to simplifying the work that they do in a seemingly sort of overburdened, chaotic, uh, working day?

[00:09:59] Lisa: Yeah, there’s two things, right? One is just creating the space and the other thing is having the permission to do it. I mean, you can have all the space you want, but if, you know, your boss thinks you’re just sitting around thinking all day, we’re not going to be too happy, right? I wouldn’t be happy if my team is like, I’m glad you’re really busy, Lisa.

[00:10:11] I’m sitting here thinking, and I’m like, okay. You know, one, I think first things first is that we have to have people getting comfortable with challenging work. So they can actually get rid of things that you can feel like subtraction is okay, no matter what level you are, right, you can lead at every level.

[00:10:28] So I’m okay with simplifying a report or suggesting we change the frequency of it or putting things on a time diet. There’s ways we can simplify things without getting rid of them to create space. So the most advanced people or teams also spend their time killing stupid rules like that’s a stupid rule.

[00:10:46] It stopped doing that, right? They practice stopping things. Now, then there’s a point when people are like, yeah, I’d love to stop things, but, um, my boss told me to do it. Okay, well, you probably can’t stop that. But you can question it, or you can get comfortable with not saying no, but saying yes if. So this is a trick.

[00:11:04] People always say, I can’t say no to my boss, I’ll say, but say yes if. This is the boundary piece. Yes, I can do that if we trade off, or if, right, we change priorities, or if I can delay something else. And the if all of a sudden makes it a contractual thing. Versus a dictation thing. And so those are small things they can start to do to get the boundaries happening and the space for thinking to happen.

[00:11:26] Katie: In the lean world, we talk about the, you know, all the different wastes in the system, but like people’s time waste is so, so much. And we’re doing so many things that we don’t, we feel like are meaningful or valuable, but like so many. Meetings that don’t have a clear agenda and all these people who are invited to them.

[00:11:43] And, you know, are we doing actually doing anything in it?

[00:11:46] Lisa: But this is what I’m getting at, which is that things sound good, but then in practice, they’re not. And you’re not going to lean or Six Sigma or Agile your meetings. It’s the human daily work behavior, the work of work that sucks up our time. And that’s typically behavioral driven, it’s micro, so we don’t lean in Six Sigma, those things.

[00:12:05] Do you Six Sigma your email? No, you don’t. Do you lean your email? Where do you spend most of your time? Email. Meetings. This is what I’m talking about. So, like, I think, There are practices where it’s really good, like lean and those processes work, but on the things that are more micro and daily doesn’t work like doing lean on your email is kind of like the antithesis of simplicity.

[00:12:28] Like you’re really putting an 800 pound gorilla on something that could be done a lot simpler.

[00:12:32] Katie: I love this concept, though, you say of like, you know, kill a stupid rule or a lot of people, you know, in the continuous improvement world often say, like, just fix what bugs you. And so, like, if all this email.

[00:12:41] bugs you, what can you do about it? How can you prioritize or not respond or shift things so that you’re not sitting there, I mean, for like four hours a day, just responding to emails?

[00:12:50] Lisa: Well, you can time box things. I mean, that is one thing. It’s just getting disciplined about how much you dopamine hit yourself and check your email, right?

[00:12:56] How addicted are you to it? I mean, every time you sit down to thank you go, wait, I better check my email first. Right? So, because what you’re saying is email rules everything for me. Right? Instant. I’ve got to be always on demand. So, timeboxing is one. And the other thing is just putting some boundaries around email.

[00:13:11] With etiquette. So, you know, what drives me crazy is when people respond to things I didn’t need them to respond to. Or, you know, it’s the reply all crap. So, I really liked, like, what Merck did. Merck Pharmaceuticals. They type in their subject line, NNTR, which means no need to respond. And so, basically, if I’m just telling you something and I write NNTR in it, it’s just, it’s an FYI.

[00:13:31] And what’s great about that is you’re going to cut down those empty calorie communications by like 20 percent. Theirs was cut by 13 percent just by doing something simple in terms of behavioral signals like that. So there are quick things you can do and you don’t have to be the boss to do that.

[00:13:47] Katie: So, oh my gosh, one of my biggest pet peeves is the reply all or not putting BCCs so then it goes out to everyone.

[00:13:54] Yeah, they

[00:13:54] Lisa: include me and then all of a sudden I’m like, I’m a spectator in their conversation. I don’t give a crap.

[00:13:59] Katie: So let’s go back to this concept of meaningful work. You know, thinking time is meaningful work. How do we really know and understand and define what meaningful work is?

[00:14:09] Lisa: Right. So that’s the first step is defining what it is because everyone says, well, I want to work on meaningful things.

[00:14:13] And when I ask bosses and people, what does that mean? They can’t answer it. I mean, it’s kind of like, I wish everyone had common sense. Well, everyone thinks they have common sense, but they don’t. So, and it’s situational. So defining meaningful work is Let me give you a really simple exercise, okay? If you make a T chart on a piece of paper, and the left hand side is what you spend your time doing, and the right hand side is what you wish you spend your time doing.

[00:14:38] The left hand side, when you say what do you spend your time doing, you write down 20 tasks that you typically spend your time doing during the week or during the month, right? And you have to be specific, don’t just say meetings, but like my Monday staff meeting, my Thursday standup, my one on ones, my emails, whatever.

[00:14:54] And you look at your list after you get 20 things, you have to have 20, and it’s going to be hard and people are going to hate me for it, but whatever. And then you circle the things on that list in your mind that are valuable. You’ll probably circle a handful of things, maybe. And so then you have to ask yourself, what is common about all the things that you circled?

[00:15:13] And of the things you didn’t circle, why do you do them? And that’s really the key part, which is everyone starts to go, Well, I have to do it. It’s part of the well, you’ve got to get rid of something to make the right hand side of the chart work, which is what do you wish you were doing and what you wish you were doing?

[00:15:30] You’re going to write down things like, you know, thinking strategic partnerships, meeting with clients. And typically what happens is the stuff on the left hand side is internal and the stuff on the right hand side is external. And the reason I’m telling you this is you start to see where you spend your time and where the waste is.

[00:15:47] And then on the right hand side, you start to see and get a common definition for what meaningful work is. And meaningful work is where you should spend your time. And just the exercise of defining that for yourself, and then having a common definition for everyone else, becomes the compass versus the clock.

[00:16:04] I know where I should be spending my time directionally versus Whereby Outlook calendar drives me every day.

[00:16:10] Katie: So important. I met as a solopreneur, I guess, a handful of years ago, I did a similar exercise and this might be helpful for people too. It’s like, I realized that I was doing everything in my business and if I wanted to take that next step in my impact, I could, I had to let go and not do all the tasks.

[00:16:28] And so for me, it was a realization that I needed to hire a team to do that because it was impossible to do the everything too. So it’s also, are you doing the right things for either. Your role in your organization, or if you have your own business, and where are you with that growth and scale? And what’s the meaningful work for you?

[00:16:44] It’s not saying there’s not some other things to do aren’t meaningful, but is that the right work for you to be doing versus someone else? As you look at the totality of it? 100 percent right. How do you think about you mentioned innovation? And this is such a key, you know, concept to have, you know, we talked about innovation, how are we staying ahead of the times creating new things?

[00:17:02] And what’s the link between innovation and simplification?

[00:17:05] Lisa: They’re directly linked. So it’s interesting. Simplification is the front end of innovation. The reason I’m saying that is simplification creates the space for the thinking and the creativity to happen. When you are drowning in complexity, you are reacting.

[00:17:23] You are doing, you are in a rut, right? You are just following along. Simplification creates the space for innovation to happen. So it’s not just something, um, added on your to do list, but it is the way that you operate. So without simplification, I do not see how innovation can effectively sustain itself in a company.

[00:17:42] Katie: Everyone’s just running around trying to put all the fires out or go to all those meetings and not having that deep thinking time.

[00:17:48] Lisa: Some people will say, well, we innovate all the time. We hear about a competitor and we react to it. And that’s my point. I said that you are reacting. You are reacting to change.

[00:17:56] You need to be driving it. Those are very different. So, you know, if simplicity is a proactive strategy, complexity is a reactive strategy, and you can’t move fast enough if you’re complex.

[00:18:07] Katie: So, Lisa, what are some of the common pitfalls that you see to successfully simplifying one’s work in one’s life?

[00:18:13] Lisa: Well, a few things.

[00:18:14] Let me just say that a lot of complexity is done with the best of intentions, right? Very, it’s not very often that you see complexity put in place maliciously. It does happen, right? When people are tricking you with overly complex contracts and things like that. But for the most part, it’s people trying to move faster with the best of intentions.

[00:18:31] And so they make, they just kind of Frankenstein processes. That’s what happens, right? Right. Right. I, I have something called the complexity trap, and I’ll tell you what’s part of it. This is how we follow the trap. The first thing is, again, we confuse being organized with being simplified. So stop organizing, which means you’re creating processes, and start simplifying.

[00:18:49] Get rid of. The second thing is you are addicted to addition, not subtraction. And so building in subtraction is going to help you get out of the complexity trap. So for example, building into your annual strategic planning, not just, Everyone’s plan for what they are going to accomplish next year, but also everyone’s plan for what they will stop doing next year, right?

[00:19:10] That’s building and subtraction. The next thing is we have to stop just valuing or rewarding more. We have to also value and reward less, and that means rewarding people for getting rid of things. All right. So that builds on the subtraction. And then the final thing is getting a better balance of doing versus thinking.

[00:19:28] So there are really great activity driven companies, but we want the outcome and the outcome should be innovation, speed, results, revenue, and that only happens if we build thinking into the time. So that’s the building in the deep work. If they can get out of the complexity trap, shifting from organizing to simplifying, getting from just addition to subtraction, not just doing, but thinking These kinds of things, not just more but valuable, those are the organizations.

[00:19:56] We’ll embrace simplicity for the long term, not just the episodic one offs.

[00:20:01] Katie: Toyota leader, Isao Yoshino, told me that the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And that really is deeply connected to thinking. They spend more time and create more space for their leaders and their people to really do that deep thinking, to look at problems.

[00:20:19] To do analysis and do experimentation. It’s the, that’s the only secret. It’s all related because

[00:20:25] Lisa: then, so you’ll see a lot of organizations that say, I need people to be more strategic and it, which they’re trying to say, I need people to think more, but when, when, I mean, yeah, everyone agrees, I’d love to think more, but the only way to do that is to get rid of something.

[00:20:39] There’s not, there’s only so many hours in a day and at some point you can’t spreadsheet your way out of it. Right, no color coding on your calendar is going to enable you to have more thinking time because there’s not enough time.

[00:20:52] Katie: Yeah, I can see the link to this too in the importance of leaders, senior leaders being very clear on the vital few and simplifying because I, I see so many organizations that have like, here are 50 goals for the year and that complexity.

[00:21:06] Also leads to people not knowing how to line and how to prioritize and what to say no to. So the senior leaders need to simplify where are we going and and the key things we need to do to get there. Yeah,

[00:21:19] Lisa: I will tell you one of the biggest barriers to transformation is leadership. There’s a couple of things I do.

[00:21:24] First of all, as I build in stopping it into my strategic plan, meaning I want everyone to tell me what they want to accomplish and then what they’re going to stop doing, because those are usually the excuses they have for why they can’t meet their goals later. I want to get really clear on what their top three goals are, not their top 20.

[00:21:37] You can have 20, but I need to know what the top three are. So everyone’s getting bogged down. I want to say, where are you in this top three? And then I also really need to understand, um, from my team where they’re building and thinking time. So I want to know on your calendar, where is it going to be? So, because I’m, I’m trying to mandate.

[00:21:53] Priorities to change behavior, but I’m also taking excuses off the table. That’s a balance, right? Because otherwise what happens is from a leadership perspective, you have 20 top priorities. No one’s cleared any space to make that thinking happen, right? And no one’s allowed me to subtract, right, to get the job done.

[00:22:12] I think that that’s, um, there’s something that has to change with the leadership in order to make those things happen.

[00:22:17] Katie: And prioritizing the time as well for what’s most important. One of the organizations I worked with had a really visionary COO who was in charge of our, you know, the cultural transformation to really be a more learning culture.

[00:22:32] And one of the first things he did, but it didn’t, It took like 18 months was to make sure to like reorganize how leaders calendars were that Fridays every morning the senior leaders were to be out going to visit different sites and then the afternoon was thinking time because the calendars were so misaligned.

[00:22:49] It was creating the barriers, right? It was, it was creating the barriers for people to really focus on the things that were most important.

[00:22:55] Lisa: It’s kind of like when you have a And we just had a three day weekend here in the United States. And that third day is always, that Monday, is always so great because everybody’s off.

[00:23:06] It’s kind of like when everyone has their Friday, all the leaders have it aligned. You’re not going to get hit with any surprises. So when everyone’s doing the same thing, it just makes it, the chances of somebody hijacking your time are a lot less. So I agree with that. Actually at our, you know, at our organization, Fridays are meeting free.

[00:23:22] There are no internal meetings. Clients might be able to hijack it. Sometimes you have to, but internally, no way, man, we don’t do it.

[00:23:29] Katie: That’s great. And that starts with the top, you know, just as you said, one of the things Lisa we’ve talked about too, is not just complexity as it relates to our time and our calendars, but complexity also in.

[00:23:41] Maybe how we’re approaching tools and training and trying to like, teach people things. I, and one of the things I see a lot in my community is that we’ve made tools so complex that it’s a barrier for entry for people because they’re like, there’s no way I could ever learn how to do that. Or we’ve made processes seem so complex and not, and we’ve gotten away from sort of the, the essential message.

[00:24:04] And you, you do a lot of training and development with people. How do you think about that as the concept of, Simplicity as it relates to tools, training, and messaging.

[00:24:13] Lisa: The basic gist of how we do everything is accelerated. So it’s one technique, one hour. And if it can be less than that, fine. But why do I say that?

[00:24:22] Usually a lot of training programs are, we’re going to do a program on leading change, and we’re going to make it multi day, and you’re going to learn all these things over all these days. No one’s going to remember it. They’ll remember a couple things. So we do more micro learning, right? Where you’re going to remember, you’re going to do one thing at a time.

[00:24:37] And then apply it. So that’s one thing you can do. The other thing is, like, just get to it. So, here’s an example. One of the most popular tools that we have is called Kill a Stupid Rule. Now, I don’t even have to explain it, because I pretty much titled it what it is. Alright, so stop getting all fancy. Just be clear.

[00:24:53] I could make it a really complex tool because people would think that would have more value, but let me just tell you how it works. If you could kill any two rules at work that would help you be more innovative, move faster, reach KPIs, what would they be? Write them down. Let’s talk about them and then let’s see which ones are their common themes and of those most common themes, the biggest themes we’re going to attack first and see if we can kill them.

[00:25:16] Katie: I love that. And how does that play out? Like, what is, you know, what happens? I’m curious of, of your clients when you, when you do this. It

[00:25:22] Lisa: is like. Well, I used to say lighters at a concert, but that’s dating myself. So it’s more like your iPhone at a concert, right? The flashlight’s off. Everyone’s so excited.

[00:25:31] Like, Ooh, they can’t believe it. It’s like a big Kumbaya moment. Uh, one, it is cathartic because no one ever asks them what they can get rid of. No one ever gives them the permission and no one’s given them a, uh, a framework to approach it so simply. Like, you just, what do you want to get rid of? And so, we did this, I’ll give the example of Pfizer, which I love to do.

[00:25:51] We trained their 40 Simplicity champions around the world. And this was right when COVID was starting to happen, and it was well timed because Albert, the CEO, wanted to make people move faster. And Simplicity does that. So, we rolled out Kill a Stupid Rule. And the launch was with, it was in Florida, at Orlando, at their annual kickoff, 850 leaders, and I did a Kill a Stupid Rule.

[00:26:12] In less than an hour, with 850 people, we identified over 3, 000 rules. Most of them weren’t rules. They’re annoyances, time sucks, things that just peeve you, right? We invited people to kill things. They got rid of hundreds of rules that saved thousands of hours and they estimated a quarter million dollars.

[00:26:33] Less than one hour. Because I asked. I mean, there’s no rocket science. Here, take it. Use it. I can facilitate you through it. It’s a tool that once you give it to people, Uh, you know, the genie is out of the bottle and they should just use it. The key though, is remember rules are like weeds. They grow back.

[00:26:52] So these are habits we have to build. So we constantly weed the garden over time and it works. It absolutely works. I’ll tell you one more thing. I do it with my team every quarter and we just had ours. God, was it two weeks ago now? And my team looks so forward to it. We have an agenda right for the day.

[00:27:10] Not a full day. Can’t have a full day. And the last thing we do is kill a stupid rule. And really that’s, if we only came and did that, they would be satisfied. Every time we do it, I help facilitate it. And I always learn about the rules that I put in place that were stupid. They’re usually mine. Just so you know.

[00:27:27] Uh, to be clear. Um, I always kill something. We kill many things. And it is harder and harder every time we do it for people to come up with ideas to kill. That’s how you know it’s a success. It is like people really are like, I don’t have to think of, I don’t know what to get rid of. That to me is like the ultimate leader is that you can be like, I asked people, they don’t have anything to get rid of.

[00:27:47] Katie: That’s amazing too, right? People are feeling like their work is meaningful because they’re not being filled with all these things that are just like, Oh my God, why do I have to do that?

[00:27:55] Lisa: Yeah. And if they do, my reaction to that is, why are you doing, like, I gave you a form, get rid of it. What are you doing?

[00:28:03] So we’re pretty clear about it.

[00:28:05] Katie: Yeah. I love how that opens up that psychological safety, which is, you know, a huge topic in the world these days for people to bring up things that are feeling like, It’s not, you know, they’re not helpful. It’s a stupid rule. It’s like, it’s actually improving their work.

[00:28:20] You’re giving them the safety and the space to really bring forward their ideas to make something better. Because especially when it’s the leader saying, you know, it’s sometimes be like, we come around with all these great ideas and like, maybe it’s not such a great idea and is actually causing more complexity than we thought.

[00:28:36] Lisa: Yeah, it’s true. I mean, I have to say what’s um, what’s really freeing to people is just the, the ability to feel in control. Like, people want a couple things. They want control and they want relevance. And so if I can give them more control of their time and they can feel like the work that they’re doing with that time is relevant, that’s very, very compelling.

[00:28:55] Katie: It’s the essence, right? We want to have meaning and we want to feel like we’re contributing to doing something to making the world better or our work better or the value better. So how can, how can we do that more effectively?

[00:29:07] Lisa: That’s right. People want that. They want to feel relevant.

[00:29:09] Katie: Lisa, I’m curious, you know, you’ve been talking about simplicity for a while, and I’m curious, what is next, uh, what have you been thinking about as we move into the next quarter of this century about the future of work and how we can make, you know, work and life better?

[00:29:23] Lisa: Well, the next progress is, in my opinion, you know, I talk a lot about Simplicity driving innovation and thinking, et cetera. And it really allows you to tie yourself to meaningful work. And, you know, along that thread, simplicity really does drive culture. It drives, cause if you get the work right, you get the culture, right.

[00:29:42] I think, right. It doesn’t matter how great the perks are. If the cultures, you know, if the work sucks and this really gets time to well being. So we have a burnout epidemic. Now that is directly tied to complexity and it is directly tied to a lack of meaningful work. And so one of the things that I’m really delving into is simplicity’s impact on well being.

[00:30:03] And I think that that is another great byproduct that happens when you simplify because people, it’s not just about doing meaningful work, it is my well being, I am less burned out, right? People, people will work really hard, really hard if they feel like they’re doing something meaningful. And they will work really hard and not be burned out if they’re doing something meaningful.

[00:30:25] So I think simplification can actually help solve the burnout crisis. And it’s really compelling because it’s not just a productivity issue, it’s an HR and human issue too.

[00:30:35] Katie: I really appreciate what you just said. said, though, you know, when we feel connected to purpose and meaning, we’re energized by doing the work.

[00:30:43] But when the work feels wasteful and disrespectful, it’s like the ultimate like respect for people is how is doing that meaningful work or feeling in a connection to even if it’s a task I’m doing that it’s contributing to something that’s helping a bigger picture.

[00:30:56] Lisa: This is the issue, right? Is that there’s this gap people think if I simplify, well, what am I paying people for?

[00:31:03] You’re paying them to do more valuable work. And in fact, I bet they’ll work harder and people are engaged. They are not lazy. They will work their ass off. They will be amazing. Right? But, um, the problem is, why, why should they? If they’re working on crap, why do I want to work all night long?

[00:31:18] Katie: To me, that comes back to the essence of what lean and continuous improvement is truly all about.

[00:31:24] It’s about eliminating that waste, having true respect for people and making sure that they feel a connection to what they’re doing. Is, is meaningful and they have an opportunity to kill that stupid rule or to make something better if it’s not as effective or efficient or purposeful as it could be.

[00:31:42] Lisa: Yeah, I, I really think that that’s what people are looking, they are looking for meaning and relevance and control and simplification can do that and it’s not just productivity. Right. It’s meaning. And that’s a very big shift that we need to get people to wrap their head around and leaders can get, they get a bonus, right?

[00:32:00] They get productivity and they get happy employees. So I think that’s, that’s a good thing.

[00:32:05] Katie: In addition to kill the stupid rule, because that’s absolutely something that everyone listening should do with yourself and do you with your team coming out of this. What’s the best place to be starting with simplifying your life?

[00:32:18] Lisa: I always tell people at the end of my speech is to ask themselves personally, right? Not just professionally. Two questions. The first question is, what do you want? I don’t think a lot of people know. What do you want? And cause that’s going to get to meaning. But the second question is probably more important, which is what’s stopping you.

[00:32:35] And so I would spend some time thinking, you know, what do you really want? And what are the real things that are stopping you? Because a lot of times we don’t realize that we have more control than we think. And, you know, I, I tell this story about how I was complaining for months about getting a new iPhone because I cracked my iPhone and I complained every night to my husband, like, oh, this, that, whatever, you know, and I gotta go get this iPhone.

[00:32:59] And after a month, he just looked at me and he’s like, go get what is stopping you? Go get a new iPhone. And I remember being so pissed because I was like, oh, how dare he call me out? You know, but it was like, what is stopping me? I commute into Grand Central every day. There’s an Apple store right there. I walk by it every day.

[00:33:16] Why don’t I get my butt up the stairs and go get a new iPhone? You know, it was just finding the time. That’s a silly example, but I bet that’s what Oh, it happens to a lot of us. It’s just like, God, just go do it. So, in your personal life, figure out what is really stopping you. And what are the things that you really have control over?

[00:33:34] You probably can do more than you realize.

[00:33:37] Katie: I remember my mom, who’s a therapist, you know, told me she, one time, I was like, oh, the ball’s in the other person’s court. And she’s like, actually, the ball’s Always in your court because you, you could, you have a choice to do something different, either changing the relationship dynamic or taking that next step, going to the iPhone store and getting your new iPhone, whatever it is.

[00:33:55] So such a powerful, like what’s holding us back, what’s stopping us and what help do we need? to make it something you can do. Yeah, I

[00:34:01] Lisa: like your mom’s advice.

[00:34:02] Katie: Yeah, I know. I’ve learned so much from her. It was great. It’s hard sometimes having a therapist as a mom growing up, but I was

[00:34:08] Lisa: lucky you were hard. I know it

[00:34:09] Katie: was.

[00:34:10] But it’s both. I mean, I realized how much she’s like you do the same work I do. But for people in organizations, you’re not unpacking their personal life, but you’re unpacking their habits and the things that are holding them back and how to connect with purpose and so much more. It all comes back to the same thing.

[00:34:24] Lisa: Well, it’s funny. I often say when I get off. stage that I, um, you know, both your, your inspirational speaker, but you’re a therapist. And people actually say that they’re like, let me know where I should send you, send my

[00:34:35] Katie: therapy bill to you, which I do. This is amazing. It’s giving people the framework for thinking and it’s asking those provocative questions, just like you did.

[00:34:44] What rule do you need to kill? And those two questions you’re leaving us with here. So thank you so much, Lisa, we could talk about so much more and I’d love to have you back sometime on the show. Thank you. And I’m really excited to hear more. about how you’re linking simplicity with well being and how we really can overcome this burnout epidemic.

[00:35:03] Lisa: I’m looking forward to delving into it more. Thank you. And thanks for having me. It was really fun.

[00:35:08] Katie: Thanks to Lisa Bedell for joining me here on Chain of Learning. I encourage you to connect with Lisa on LinkedIn and check out her books, Why Simple Wins and Kill the Company, as well as her TEDx talk about simplicity.

[00:35:19] I’ll put the links to these and other ways to connect with Lisa and her company, FutureThink, in the full episode show notes. So how can you get comfortable with less so that you can do the real meaningful work? I love this insight from Lisa, that to actually be able to do the important and value added work, we can’t just keep adding more to our plate.

[00:35:39] We have to start saying no, to subtract, to eliminate the time wasters from our schedules. We have to define what is the most meaningful and then align our actions and our time with that. This concept of elimination of waste is fundamental to lean and process improvement, yet somehow we too can get caught up in not seeing how all the tasks in front of us our potential waste that we have control over.

[00:36:04] Lisa provided a ton of great exercises and reflection questions here for you and your teams to leverage to start bringing more simplicity into your life and work. I, for one, am going to take on Lisa’s kill a stupid rule exercise and ask my team in our next team meeting, what do we need to kill? I’m sure a ton of my great ideas have unknowingly created complexity in some of our processes.

[00:36:26] How about you? I also encourage you to reflect on the questions Lisa posed at the end of the episode. What do you want and what’s stopping you? As I learned from my mom, the ball’s always in your court. Far too often, we think of all the limiting reasons and barriers to taking action. Let’s flip that script.

[00:36:46] The time is now to simplify your life and work, and to lead the way to do the same with your teams and the leaders you work with. If you haven’t already listened in, I encourage you to go back to listen into some of the previous chain of learning episodes that touch on some of the topics that Lisa and I also explored here, including episode four, leading for impact, the power of being overdoing, where I talked about how all the things that we do can get in the way of how you want to be as a leader, including that time for thinking, coaching and development and episode seven, where I talked about the difference between goals, what you want to achieve and intentions, who you want to be.

[00:37:23] and the impact you want to have in this world. Be sure to follow or subscribe now to Chain of Learning and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues so we can all strengthen our Chain of Learning together. And if you’re enjoying the show, please leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast player such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.

[00:37:42] Thanks for being a link in my Chain of Learning today. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day.