Transactions to Transformations: Positioning for Greater Influence with Betsy Jordyn

[00:00:00] Betsy: If you’re an internal, there’s like internal branding you need to do. You know, there’s internal shaping of thinking or internal marketing you need to do. So some of the things that you might do as an individual is if you’re breaking into a client system, you know, it’s like you’re having conversations and you’re asking them the questions of the kinds of things that you would wanna be a part of, and you start having a conversation around it.

[00:00:21] Katie: Welcome the chain of learning where the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people-centered learning culture, get results, and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy. I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson.

[00:00:41] Do you ever feel like the work you’re being asked to do isn’t leveraging your skills to your fullest ability? Or have you been disappointed that you weren’t asked to be part of the project team that you knew you were the perfect fit for? Or maybe you’re getting pigeonholed as a process and tools expert, which you are, but you know you have greater potential in leading transformational change in your organization.

[00:01:04] Maybe you say yes to whatever client, whether internal or external comes forward with as a request. Like, can you lead a workshop or facilitate this event and then end up being disappointed to find yourself being seen as a service provider and not a strategic partner that you know you could be? Or maybe if you’re an external consultant, you’re struggling to grow your business or charge the higher rates, you know, others are getting.

[00:01:28] If you answered yes to any of these questions, you’re likely having a positioning problem. I’ve been there so many times over the course of my career as an internal change leader and as a business owner, and so have my clients, and so has my guest for this episode, Betsy Jordan, a brand positioning expert who helps consultants and coaches position themselves as sought after experts and influencers in their niche, and I bet you have too.

[00:01:55] In the most previous episode of Chain of Learning, episode 40, I highlighted the doer trap that you might be falling into when you haven’t fully clarified your role when you are doing the work that is not yours to own. I invited Betsy back to Chain of Learning, to go even deeper into how you can position yourself, your role, and your value for greater impact.

[00:02:16] I. Betsy was my guest back on episode 14 when we talked about how you can become an astute political navigator, and she’s been working with me behind the scenes of my business for nearly three years to help me continue to uplevel my own clarity of positioning and branding. I’ve learned so much from working with Betsy and invited her here to share her insights about the power and process of positioning that she’s gained from her years of experience as an internal organizational development consultant at Disney to leading an external OD consulting practice for companies like Wyndham and aaa, and now helping consultants and coaches like me and you step into the next level of influence and impact.

[00:02:54] Betsy breaks down the importance of positioning and leveraging your influence skills to shape the understanding of what problem your clients need to solve and how you’re best served to help and shares actionable ways that you can clarify and communicate the real value of your work to land not only the work, but the role that you want and deserve.

[00:03:13] And we both share challenges and insights we’ve learned from evolving the framing of our own positioning over time. We started off our conversation with a question, what is positioning and why does it matter? Let’s dive in.

[00:03:26] Betsy: Positioning is something that is so interesting ’cause we all talk about it and it’s like one of those words, like it means everything and it means nothing.

[00:03:33] So to me, positioning is about fit. You know, like fit and alignment, like where do I fit into the market or where do I fit into the mind of my ideal client? So brand positioning on the whole is always about. Where do I fit within the context? So you picture like from a brand positioning standpoint, like if my nose is running, you know, there’s a connection that I make in the market where it’s like, oh, my nose is running.

[00:03:55] I’m gonna go for a Kleenex. You know that there’s an association that you make that’s from a branding standpoint, but then there’s like a positioning standpoint is around where do I fit in regards to the work and the role. So there’s like multiple different levels of positioning that’s important when you think globally.

[00:04:12] So as an internal consultant, like there’s fit in terms of when do the executives think of me and bring me in. And then there’s this proactive positioning that you do when they ask for your help around like, how do I position myself strategically for the kind of work I wanna do and the role that I wanna have?

[00:04:28] So it’s almost like you have to look at positioning. It’s like one word. That kind of means like three different things depending on, depending on how you use it. And they all relate to the same thing.

[00:04:37] Katie: Yeah. You use the word brand, Betsy. And a lot of, especially internal leaders, might not think of themselves having, per se, a brand.

[00:04:45] Um, before we continue on the positioning part, let’s talk about what you mean by brand and why that’s important. Where even if you’re not, say, an external consultant or you know, seeking to attract clients, but you’re in an internal person.

[00:04:58] Betsy: So you’ve been really good with me on this one ’cause you always push me on it be, but I kind of use them interchangeably.

[00:05:04] Like sometimes I think about it as a brand and sometimes I think about positioning, like to me positioning’s activity. Brand is really your reputation. So I think there’s huge misunderstandings around brand. Like brand thinks like, oh, I could build my brand on social media, and it’s like, oh, I’m gonna build my reputation.

[00:05:20] That isn’t exactly what a brand is. A brand is a promise that you make and consistently deliver to a certain audience. And so what a brand is, it’s a collective associations. It’s like your identity and positioning and brand positioning can be said. The same thing is when there’s a connection forged. I look, I look at it as sort of like a golden threat between here’s my ideal clients and their deepest needs, and here’s me my brand is the stronger I make these two things and align them, the stronger people will think of me.

[00:05:50] So as an internal consultant, you have a brand, everybody has a brand, it’s how people perceive you and they understand. So if let’s say, um, you’re an internal consultant and you’re a really good order taker, you do whatever people ask, like that’s your brand. You know, like that’s how people perceive you.

[00:06:08] So in everything that I teach for internal consultants or external consultants is you have to take charge of it. Like if you’re an external consultant and you have no website and, and you charge by the hour, you are positioning yourself or establishing a brand image that you are a service provider for hire.

[00:06:27] Like that is your reputation. That is what you are creating. So positioning the brand is the promise. Positioning is what you do to align all the touch points to shape thinking on who you are and the value that you can create. I dunno if it differentiated it. Well, you’ve asked me this all the time. I, I wind up using these words interchangeably.

[00:06:46] Katie: I really like that use of the word reputation, um, as the way to describe what a brand is. ’cause I think that can resonate with people more, especially if you aren’t necessarily like an external consultant trying to get work, but you’re like, what’s your reputation? And then what is the problem that you solve?

[00:07:02] Like what you said, when people go for have a sniffly nose and they go for the Kleenex, there’s the reputation that Kleenex is the gonna solve, gonna solve their problem. And so those two are really linked as well. And I know we’re gonna, we’re go in and talk about that really here today to understand, um, how to really position yourself strongly to be the one that people choose for the work you wanna do.

[00:07:25] And this is really. Linked to the most recent episode where I talk about how we often fall into the doer trap, right? And especially for internal change leaders and uh, even just leaders as a whole, we fall into this doer trap. So the way we can position ourselves to get out of that is another way we’re really gonna explore here.

[00:07:43] So stay tuned and keep listening because Betsy is a master at really. She’s helped me a lot think about this, and subsequently I’ve been working with a lot of teams to help them do the same. So how, how can internal leaders or anyone really know when their brand positioning is off? Like, what are those signals that, you know, you’re, you’re not positioning yourself in the way that you want.

[00:08:05] To be working or engaged?

[00:08:07] Betsy: Well, I mean, one obvious is the work that’s coming to you or the work you’re doing is not the work that you feel that you’re capable of. You’re getting asked for the wrong thing, you know? So if you are getting asked to say like, Hey, can you do X, y, Z tool? And you’re just consistently asked for that, or you’re consistently doing that, your brand positioning is off.

[00:08:26] Like, and I wanna clarify too. It’s not, it’s not just about your reputation. It’s like it’s, it’s a bigger collection of your identity. ’cause a lot of people think it’s like, okay, this is what I am. My reputation is like, am I a a helpful person or I am a good person? Like, those are reputation types of things.

[00:08:42] This is a lot more of like, who are you and how you wanna help. So it’s like when the right people are calling you, then you know, your brand messaging and your positioning and all of that. So there’s the two different types, like remember is like there’s the positioning that you proactively do when somebody asks for your help.

[00:08:57] And then there’s the shaping thinking that you are doing so that the right work is coming to you. So when your positioning is off, is it’s both sides of it is that you’re on your side, is you can’t describe for the life of you, the value what you create. You don’t know who you help, you don’t know the problems that you solve.

[00:09:13] Someone asks you what you do, you flub over it, you know, like you have no idea what to say. You know, the idea of going to a networking event and somebody asks you like, what do you do? Fills you with dread and anxiety. You know, you’re not clear. And if you’re not clear, nobody else is gonna be clear. You know, if you say like, this is what you do, and someone’s like, Hmm.

[00:09:31] You know, what does that mean? Like, I have a huge story when I, when I learned much more about like how I need to work on my messaging. Like I always knew about the proactive positioning with clients, but from a branding standpoint, that’s something that I learned later on as a business owner. So, you know, what’s not working is the wrong work’s coming to you.

[00:09:51] You’re not doing work that you feel like you’re capable of. You just don’t feel like you’re being leveraged to the best of your ability, you know? And the calls are just not on point. You know, who’s calling? You aren’t the right people. Um, I, you could tell as an external consultant is you look at your book of work and it’s like all scattered all over the place.

[00:10:08] Like you have tons of different clients, some you like, some you don’t. That’s like, that’s a sign that you’re just using, like that scattershot method and you know, fingers crossed, hope for the best, the right people are coming to you. I dunno if I answered that question properly, but

[00:10:21] Katie: No, I, I, I think that’s super helpful and, and there’s a disconnect in what you’re doing or there’s confusion out there and often stems from our, maybe our lack of clarity for ourselves of, of what that position is.

[00:10:33] I love the story you shared with me in the past, Betsy, about how you really came to understand the importance of positioning early on in your career when you were, um, an internal leader at Walt Disney and. What happened in that experience that made you realize truly how positioning is?

[00:10:52] Betsy: So it’s all around how I got started in consulting.

[00:10:54] So how I got started as an internal consultant is kind of like a weird way that I got there. So it was before actually I was working at Disney. It was when I first started grad school. So like, you’re gonna have to come back to with me, like to 1995, um, long time ago. And I’m in grad school. So our first presentation was to do a functional marketing presentation.

[00:11:13] And we had a pitch, like a department that we wanted. And in my company I was working for a large nonprofit. I wanted an OD department, a learning and development department, and a career development department and a whole HRD department and for kicks and giggles. When I was done with my presentation, I sent it to my VP of hr and she said, great, go ahead and start it.

[00:11:31] I’m like, awesome, you know, so I’m in grad school and I’m in the official OD role. Like I started this department. I am the OD consultant within my organization. And so I had these great opportunities where it’s like, learn, apply, learn, apply. Every time I was in class, I got a chance to do something. Then I graduated.

[00:11:48] I’m like, okay, so now I officially have my degree and then my company announces this big reorganization and I’m like, oh my gosh, I could not be more lucky. ’cause not only do I have all of this experience from grad school, but now I have like this real world thing where I get to lead this big massive reorganization.

[00:12:05] Then the announcement came out. And not only was I not leading it, you know, there was an external consultant that they brought in and um, I wasn’t even on the project team. I wasn’t even considered and I was the actual OD consultant with the master’s degree within the organization. And I wasn’t even consulted for any of this stuff.

[00:12:24] And I’m like, okay, this is a nightmare. I don’t know what to do. But luckily in my last class, um, I had a got, I got a mentor for my, one of my professors and he gave me the most invaluable advice that has completely shaped my entire consulting career. And he told me that no one is gonna use your expertise that the way that you want.

[00:12:42] You know, my understanding, I was like my twenties and I’m thinking like, well all these much older, you know, executives will understand OD and they didn’t. And he said, no one is going to use your expertise the way that you want. It’s up to you to position yourself for the work and the role that you want.

[00:12:58] So he gave me the advice to go to the VP who is in charge of this change effort and just, you know, offer my availability. I’m like, Hey, I just got outta grad school and you know, just. I just wanna learn. And so he said, yeah, sure, you can be a fly on the wall and just be a little assistant to the exec external consultant.

[00:13:14] So I made myself like invaluable to that external consultant. So now I had two mentors going on at the same time. I had this external consultant with a lot more experience and I still have my mentor from school. I. And so gradually I just started taking over different parts of the project and then by the time it was over, the external consultant had trained me, delivered, and gave me the entire project.

[00:13:35] Now I’m leading the entire project. And so, and I got recognized for all of the work that was done on the reorganization, and I just continued on from there. So from when I went to Disney as an internal OD consultant, so Disney, we had a huge internal consultancy and we were all deployed to different business units.

[00:13:52] And I knew instantly going in there, I’m like, no one is gonna use my expertise the way that I want. So it’s up to me, regardless of my client system, is I have to break in the way I was, the way I called it back in the di. That time I have to break into this client system. I have to find a way to shape everybody’s thinking about when to bring me in, and I need to take charge of the conversation of when they ask for help from me, how I’m going to do that so I can position myself in the right work, in the right role.

[00:14:20] And so this positioning. Was the key. Like, it’s not even that. I just, I didn’t it, and it’s an interesting thing in retrospect because it’s not just that I positioned myself against the work. I invented work that I wanted the clients to do, I convinced them proactively. Like one of my biggest projects that I did at Disney before I left was, um, it, it became something be called, became known as the basics.

[00:14:46] So this project all began because all the executives are sitting around and saying, well, we should do something, you know, for our frontline leaders. And then another executive said, oh, we should do something for the guest. And they tried to figure out like, oh, we’re not sure. So I interviewed all the executives, got an understanding of where their issues were, and then I proactively identified like, no, this is the through line.

[00:15:04] This is the work we need to do. I made up the entire project plan exactly what we need to do. And this is a project now that’s being taught at the Disney Institute around the world. And it was all like, I proactively advocated for the work I wanted them to do. I convinced them to do it and then I convinced them how to do it because I believed from the very beginning.

[00:15:25] And I think that like that nobody’s really gonna position it. So I think in order to do positioning well, you first have to have a vision for what’s in the client’s best interest that they don’t see for themselves yet. Like you have to lead with vision. You have to see something into their situation. So like, let’s say I think about like your people.

[00:15:43] Who are internal consultants, their lean, continuous improvement, operational excellence, they have a vision for what kind of organizational culture that they really wanna see the organization to have. You have to have a bigger vision of like, why does that organization really need that? You know, what’s the value?

[00:16:00] Shape it up. And then you just have to strategically use your political savvy to get all the right people. So I use my political savvy to get all those executives to get on board and agree with me, you know, and the thing about why I got everybody to buy in, my biggest claim to fame isn’t even that in fact that it’s taught at the Disney Institute.

[00:16:19] It’s that I got these operational executives, I got everybody in parks, resorts, everywhere in operations to stop what they were individually doing around the guest cast and the cast leader interaction and come to agreement to do it my way in this, in this aligned way. And the way I did it. Is I really listened deeply to what every one of those executives wanted.

[00:16:40] I found the through line, but I never forgot what each executive said. So, I mean, I could tell you to this day, you know, like I know that Jim made up the idea that we should call it forward to the basics. And this is why I know that Kevin said we should really focus on the, you know, like, I like every single one.

[00:16:54] I can go around the executive team, I could tell you I remember exactly what they said. And so when I was pitching things and talking about it, when the group, and it’s like, remember Reggie, you said it was really important that we gauge the hearts and minds of the, of the cast. Right. You know, so this is where this fits in.

[00:17:08] So I help them see in the initiative where they fit in. I don’t know if that, like, does that make sense? But that’s, so there’s a vision element and then there’s like a, a little bit of chutzpah of, of bringing them all together.

[00:17:21] Katie: Right. It’s, I, I really hear you saying it’s like shaping the vision for what you believe is going to be the right, you know, answer and then helping bring them along.

[00:17:29] And we talked about this in more detail the first time you came on chain of learning about how to really become an astute political navigator. And, and we talked, you know, about getting what I like to say, getting everyone’s. Thumb like fingerprints on the, the thinking of the project or the initiative.

[00:17:43] And that’s what you did so effectively and then positioned yourself as the authority to really help enable that to happen. So that’s, that’s a real power post to like, can you come in and do this, do this work. You, you are the shaper and the aligner and the, and the enabler. So super powerful in a much more powerful position than just doing the work that maybe they asked of you.

[00:18:05] You totally shaped the work in a different way.

[00:18:07] Betsy: Well, and I think it’s also seeing the opportunities, like I think about like what a lot of the, um, positioning we did with you. Um, and do you mind if I use, use an example?

[00:18:15] Katie: Uh, sure, go ahead. We’ve been, uh, for our listeners here, Betsy and I have been diving in a lot the last year on my own positioning about, you know, the work I do and my Japan experiences as well.

[00:18:26] So I’ve learned a lot in the process. So, di so dive in. Let’s use me as an example.

[00:18:29] Betsy: Okay. So let’s get like really laser focused on what does it mean to position yourself, you know, either. Overall with your brand and then specifically with clients. So when we first started working together, it was, you talked a lot about like the, the concepts that you taught.

[00:18:43] So it was a lot about like leaders lead with intention. And what we first started really working on is really clarifying who you help and. 99 times out of a hundred who you help are people who are experienced in the continuous improvement world. Even in the executives, they come out of operational excellence.

[00:19:01] So they’re all in this particular world. And so at the beginning, the strategic positioning, so that gave a lot of clarity of saying, okay, we wanna help these people. And so now let’s give them, like, let’s help these individuals get their relational skills to paired with their technical skills so these, um, internal change leaders can position more appropriately so that they can ignite that bigger change.

[00:19:22] I think over the past year what we did is we also, I we did a lot of deeper dive into both the Japan trip and into your overall positioning. And we did this by analyzing all kinds of survey data that you had all over the place. So we analyzed, like your proposals, we analyzed the questions like you did a podcast at the end of last year around asking people what they, what they wanted to know and what they understood.

[00:19:46] And it was really getting to clarity for me around the strategic frame. Where everybody struggled with the strategic problem that you solve is that they got to the end of these investments in terms of, we did all of this as it relates to lean, continuous improvement in terms of the tools and projects, and it’s only taken us so far, or it’s been somebody around, we have done all of this work to create this lean transformation in their organization and it only got us so far.

[00:20:14] Or it’s somebody who said, I have been this command and control leader, or I’ve, I’ve applied all of these Western leaders. I’ve gotten it only so far and now I’m stuck and something’s missing. All of those areas is where you come in. So the strategic problem that we’re trying to solve is what do you do when all of this stuff is like, it’s taking you so far and now you don’t know what to what is needed.

[00:20:38] And then consistently, what people say about the value that you create is you filled in the missing piece. So you brought in the piece around the people centered this vision for the people centered leadership and the learning organization that was different than everybody else. So taking the, all the investments that they had, the all of the, um, and all of those efforts plus your, your vision, that you sparked their thinking and you got them to have a different perspective.

[00:21:05] Now they have a holistic approach to lean, continuous improvement that actually works. So when we think about the strategic positioning of going away from talking about, you know, intention, um, you know, leaders leading with attention, which is good. This is something that is a principle, but it’s not the overall.

[00:21:22] When we get clear on this is the frame, you really see the value in a tremendous way. So one of the things that we did is we also interviewed a handful of your clients who spent millions. Millions on tools and project approaches to lean millions, $80 million that they were not getting an ROI from

[00:21:44] Katie: Yeah.

[00:21:44] To buy a lean house. Yeah. So,

[00:21:46] Betsy: so now enter you, and it’s not even just the ROI of the workshop that you might have done or the ROI that you might get from going on a Japan trip. It’s the, you help them realize, the ROI of all of it, like $80 million that was gonna go into the loss column, now goes into the r you know, now they’re gonna get a return on it, and then you go on and on and on.

[00:22:06] So the value is huge. The other part of your positioning that I think is also important that I think also goes to the Japan trip is where you fit in, in comparison to other lean consultants. So, um, you have some of the colleagues that you work with who are really, really good at all the detailed, um, implementation.

[00:22:23] You, some of them are really good at the training and the tools. Some of them are really good at the project management, but that’s not where you fit in. You fit in in terms of shaping perception. So everything that you do from a keynote like this is why going into keynotes is really important because storytelling and, and keynotes as a methodology, the custom learning experiences, like one of your big clients said that they were embarking on this entire process, but they brought you in and bam, now everybody’s aligned and excited and your clients will tell you over and over again that you shifted their perspective.

[00:22:55] And there’s a huge value in that and that’s why your Japan trip is so powerful is you are already shifting perspective like the Japan is a, in a learning experience, that shifts perspective. So when people go to Japan, anytime you go to an international experience, it’s transformational from that standpoint.

[00:23:13] ’cause you do shift perspective. But when you take your experience that you are providing for them that they might get, but you add in, you have this natural ability that you change their perspective. Like one of your clients who brought like a bunch of people, I. From the same organization. You know, one of the senior executives who doesn’t really have this, uh, similar background, he was so inspired, like he changed everything.

[00:23:38] He changed the way he was thinking about his executive, senior executive leadership. And that’s what you provide. So that’s what makes you different. So positioning, there’s, so, again, there’s brand positioning, and then there’s the positioning of yourself against the work. The brand positioning is where you fit in, where you stand out.

[00:23:58] It’s both of those sides. So where you fit into the market, where you fit in is when everything that they’ve done has not led to the result. Something’s missing. And you bring in this people-centered approach, but then where you stand out is your ability to inspire people to think differently. The result is, is that they think differently.

[00:24:20] They create, and then all the things that you do that creates the results. But then how you help them realize millions. Millions of dollars of investment that could have just went into the, you know, just the loss column completely.

[00:24:33] Katie: For listeners, Betsy and I have been on this journey together and, and something that shifted too is the way I’ve been talking about what I was originally calling my Japan study trip, which is.

[00:24:42] Part of what it is, but I’m, you’ll see a shift in how I’m starting to talk about it because to really get to that point that it’s, it’s not just a trip to Japan, it’s actually a Japan leadership experience. It’s immersive leadership development experience. It’s, that includes a trip to, to Japan, but it’s highly curated.

[00:24:59] We have pre-program learning, we have post trip follow up. It’s, it’s to bring you along on it, a really enriched learning experience that will get those outcomes. And we were trying to figure out like how do we describe that? Because, you know, taking over 125 global leaders over many years, there. And they all come back inspired, making different changes.

[00:25:18] As you said, this executive team was much more aligned looking at the long-term future. You know, another CEO recently told me that the experience gave him the clarity and the confidence to be, he knew this was kind of the culture he wanted to create, but he came back just really clear and confident that he was on the right path.

[00:25:35] And it’s accelerated his journey. It’s like, how do you describe that? And I, I feel like calling it a trip doesn’t just describe the transformation. So you’ll be hearing more from me about the Japan leadership experience and immersive leadership development experience, because that’s what it is. It’s not just a trip to Japan.

[00:25:51] Betsy: It’s almost like we call it transformational leadership experience. Like the leaders come back completely transform, seeing the people, seeing the experiences firsthand being with you, being with Mr. Yoshino, being with all these other people. It creates like a transformation level in an accelerated way, but at a deeper way.

[00:26:10] Like they walk away completely transform. So if you’re an individual. Who really is dead serious about like, I really wanna become this transformational continuous improvement leader. There’s no other place you’re gonna get it. I saw a testimonial after testimonial. If you’re a leader who’s super sick of just the same old, same old, like you know, if you’re kind of at that point where like, I cannot hear one more of the same leadership development principles, I’m going to like lose it.

[00:26:37] Because when you’re a senior leader, you’ve been there, done it, you’ve heard it all. You know you’re gonna get something different when you go to Japan, like finally something’s gonna click for you and that’s different. But if you’re an intact team. And you’re like that one client who is going through like a major change.

[00:26:53] You know, like that’s gonna be the opportunity that you have to go and bring your entire team to Japan because you’re gonna quickly be able to see what you need to do to lead that transformation.

[00:27:05] Katie: Well, it’s been so helpful for me too, and I, I, I bet many listeners can, uh, relate to this, is that you kind of have a sense of the value you bring, and it’s sometimes hard to really articulate that.

[00:27:15] And I think this is where, I mean, this is where I’ve gotten. Stuck in my own positioning over the course of my career as well as, I mean even now and, and we’re gonna talk a little bit later ’cause even Betsy, who’s the expert in this, has been going through her own experience of her own process of repositioning herself.

[00:27:30] And so what, we’ll dive into that in a bit. So know that this is not easy. And having someone there who can really have certain external perspective and then certainly getting some insights from your, the clients, whether you’re internal or external, about the value of the transformation. What changed, not just their experience.

[00:27:47] Like of course I wanna, like for ex the Ja Japan experience, I wanna put on an awesome experience in Japan. You’re gonna have a great trip and a great experience, but what I really want is that transformation, the impact you’re gonna have when you come back. And so it’s being able to really understand and articulate that.

[00:28:02] And it goes back to something Betsy and I have talked about. And for all the continuous improvement folks out there, you’ll understand what problem are you really helping people solve. So getting really clear on that, and then you can align yourself or position yourself on being the person who is, uh, really, truly helping that person close the gaps on the problem they need to solve.

[00:28:24] So I wanna keep going into this ’cause in, in and some insights for people about how they can go about positioning. And Betsy, you and I have talked about that there’s three different levels of, of positioning that we all need to be thinking about. So let’s break that down for our listeners, starting with, you know, that first level I.

[00:28:41] Betsy: I would say at the highest level is really getting clarity. Big picture of like where you fit in. So let’s say I was an, as an internal consultant at Disney, you know, you have experts in every area. So there were lean people, there were OD consultants, there were learning and development people. You know, everybody’s a specialist in some ways and we’re, we’re expected to partner.

[00:28:59] But you had to make it clear around like what are the kinds of problems that you want the leaders to bring you in. So in terms of like if you’re an internal, there’s like internal branding you need to do, you know, there’s internal shaping of thinking or internal marketing you need to do. So some of the things that you might do as an individual is if you’re breaking into a client system, you know, it’s like you’re having conversations and you’re asking them the questions of the kinds of things that you would wanna be a part of and you start having a conversation around it.

[00:29:26] So if you wanna be a part of strategy conversations, you ask ’em about strategy or you know, how’s your org design working with you? Have meet and greets or what have you. But you’re also having that proactive positioning around like, what’s our vision for where this organization’s gonna go and where do we wanna fit in?

[00:29:41] What’s our role? So there’s like branding from the big picture standpoint of what, what you need to get known for, what your team needs to get known for. So as an internal consultant, there’s a lot of like relational savvy, like that’s where you hear me bring in the political savvy all the time, is that there’s a lot of that going on.

[00:29:58] So let’s say you have a leader of continuous improvement. They have direct reports, but there’s always like a corollary peer, you know, that they go to, like, this team needs to get on the same page around what kind of situations or challenges do we need to be brought in. And then at your particular levels, you know, you start shaping the thinking, you know, at those different levels.

[00:30:16] But the key is, is really getting articulate about the problems. That’s where you were going back to before. It’s not about getting feedback around what’s the value that I created is, is as powerful on your positioning. It’s really understanding the situation or challenge that motivated them to reach out to you in the first place.

[00:30:31] It’s getting that insight. Like a thousand years later, after I stopped doing consulting myself and started empowering other consultants and coaches, I did this interview process with a bunch of my former executives to find out like why they wanted to bring in consultants and coaches, and one of these executives that I worked with over and over and over again, and he is like, oh, well, you know why they, you know, why we bring people in is like, when we have a lot of complex stakeholders and everybody’s got a different per perspective.

[00:30:58] You know, they, they wrangle ’em together, you know, wrangle ’em together. It’s like, that’s why I use you all the time. I’m like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, Brad, what? What? And he is like, no, no, no. This is why I, this is why I got called you in and used you over and over again, is it was your ability to wrangle stakeholders, you know, and get ’em on the same page.

[00:31:16] I’m like, so what about my OD experience? Like, I don’t care about that. I’m like, well, what about my masters? He like, who cares about that? It’s this. This is the strategic frame. If I were gonna go back and do my consulting business over again, I would probably really lean into that is the strategic problem that I’m there to solve.

[00:31:33] For the most part, and and even in the story that I was telling you about, my claim to fame is my ability to wrangle these stakeholders and get ’em all on the same page. It’s the same thing as I do as a branding person, is I wrangle a bunch of ideas. It’s figuring out that strategic frame of where you fit in, but there’s a global kind of thing for how do I wanna bring my team along.

[00:31:52] But then it’s really understanding you as an individual. Like if I were gonna say for you is like you, you, we are, you and I talk about it us all the time. Drop in support. That makes so much sense. You bring in the positive boost of energy. You’re not gonna be the one who’s going to go implement the long.

[00:32:09] The long implement, you know, all the projects and plans and all of that. That’s not you, but your colleague, um, that we talked, you know, I don’t know if I could use his name. He’s great at that. That’s when he should be brought in, you know, and together. And that’s why there’s work for all of us, you know, and, and that area.

[00:32:25] So that’s, that level is really understanding where do you fit in and stand out? What do you wanna, what do you wanna be associated with you? Then there’s the moment of truth when somebody asks for your help. That’s a different one.

[00:32:38] Katie: Yes. And this is the second thing. So, you know, so that’s getting really clear on what is that position and what people think of and why they’re calling you.

[00:32:47] But then let’s dive into that second one. ’cause I think this one, at least for me, is the hardest. And I still have to work really, really hard of not falling back into my old habits of when a client approaches me for something, I’m like, yeah, I can do that. So I work really hard. And Betsy, you’ve been really influential in helping me reframe and reshape these conversations.

[00:33:05] So please share your insights on this key. Second part of, um, positioning

[00:33:10] Betsy: where I got really clear on the process for this, I’m gonna be explicit and give you a couple recommendations of super old books that totally made a difference. But when I first got to Disney, we had two trainings at the very, very beginning.

[00:33:21] One was a book on, um, the future of staff groups by Joel Henning. And another book was on how to measure ROI by Jack Phillips. So we had both of these trainings, both of those authors took our team through a lot of work. And there was an expectation that we had, um, but that my leader put on our team is that any project that we did, we had to be able to at least have the ability to measure it to a level five ROI.

[00:33:43] Meaning we had to be able to show not just like did they like the training or like the intervention, you know, not what they learned, not what the business outcomes just were, it’s just what’s the return on investment. So in my mind, my mind when I was, when a client asked to work with me, you know, when I was doing that initial partnership setup, I knew at some point I’d have to measure it.

[00:34:03] So I started really pivoting all my conversations towards what is the business outcome that I’m really trying to achieve. ’cause if I’m gonna have to measure this later, might as well know what it is on the front end. So I, I started really getting clear on I need to master this pivot, you know, ’cause a client’s gonna come to me with a, with their solution.

[00:34:22] And I started really understanding like, like especially like OD consultants, we get brought in all the time for like workshops. And it’s like I started creating this mantra like, you know, training’s often necessary, rarely sufficient. It’s never the solution, but it’s a go-to because leaders don’t know our area of expertise.

[00:34:36] So they’re gonna only do what they see. So they’re gonna say, Hey, you know, Katie, could you design a workshop for me? Can you do some coaching? So that’s ’cause that’s gonna be the go-to when they think of a consultant is, can you do some coaching sessions or can you do a training? Those are gonna be the two things.

[00:34:51] And I have this belief that whatever a client asks for, they’re always going to be wrongly as they don’t know my area of expertise. And I’m always wrong if I start pitching them something because I don’t know what I’m going after. So in my, in what I would call my partnership setup process, it’s getting, it’s mastering the pivot from the wants to the needs.

[00:35:11] So instead of saying, okay, you know, I want you to design and deliver a training program, it’s like, that is so awesome and cool. Uh, I’m so glad you thought about that and that is a really inter interesting solution. But before we get into that, let’s back up and let’s talk about what’s, what’s going on in the business.

[00:35:25] I don’t know if it would help if I gave you a tangible example on how that would work so that you can clarify the strategic frame and position yourself against that. I

[00:35:33] Katie: think it would help. I mean it certainly helped me hear you a thousand times talk about this and it’s really started to ingrain in the way I approach.

[00:35:40] And so I know for either internal or external consultants or leaders listening, this will be super helpful. So walk us through an example.

[00:35:47] Betsy: So, um, an example is, um, when I was helping one of my clients, her name is Lisa. So Lisa was in wanting to land these, like she was trying to land a workshop and she was kind of stuck at, you know, the four figure kind of thing.

[00:36:01] And she wanted to get this like workshop to be like a five figure, at least $10,000 is what her goal was back in the day. And so she wanted my help. And so the organization wanted her to design and deliver a two day conflict resolution training for their production teams and other people on the production.

[00:36:17] And so I taught Lisa how to do this pivot and what we identified the issue was, so instead of talking about like, okay, you know, instead of let, let’s, before we get into what’s going on with this conflict resolution training, ’cause most people will say, well, how many days do you want? How many participants?

[00:36:32] What do you want as a learning? Um, I got her to get the client to be more articulate about why. And so what the client really identified is there were all these conflicts on the production floor, and the problem was, is it was leading to all of these failed lots that was costing them millions, and more importantly, it was putting their biggest customer at risk.

[00:36:54] Because they were having so many product defects, that customer was already to like cut bait and go and go with our competitor, which would’ve put the entire business at risk. And so getting that frame of saying, oh, well what we’re really trying to solve is how do we reduce these product defects and maintain the big customer like this thing now.

[00:37:15] And then you put dollars against this. It was like in the millions and millions, like it was a huge project. So this little $10,000, you know, that she was hoping to get this two day workshop was now positioned more strategically to say, oh my gosh, we need to partner with you to get this, this, this trajectory turned around.

[00:37:36] Get your product quality back on track and figure out how the team needs to do this. And so this like little gig of 10,000 turned out to be like 250 to 300,000. And it was interesting when we started getting into the work, um, you know, it was like, as, as she was like, like just doing like the process mapping where the ru the root cause was is like at the critical junctures.

[00:37:58] Everybody kind of thought that they were both like accountable. So they were like having issues and there was like some clarity in the process level. And there was, there were, there was some of it, like a conflict resolution training could have done something, you know, it’s like it’s, and she, you know, she added that in there.

[00:38:12] But the bigger problem was this, you know, so this is where you think about like, when a client asks you, like, I had an opportunity earlier in my, when I first launched my business that they wanted me to do an executive development training. And it’s like, okay, you know, awesome. They said, oh, and they liked me, they wanted me to, wanted me so badly, they handed me my competitor’s proposal.

[00:38:32] And it was for something like 7,000 for like two days. And they said me it or beat it, the project yours. I literally just launched my business. This was like, I mean, I just launched, I just did all of this investment. I wasn’t making any money. And so you’d think I might be tempted to just say, okay, fine, I’ll do it, but I’m like, no, this is not gonna get ’em to where they needed to go.

[00:38:52] And this was like somewhere around the recession time. And the company had stopped growing, um, organically, and they were only growing through mergers and acquisitions. And so they didn’t have their leaders on tap to put into those new companies. Their entire merger and acquisition strategy would’ve been.

[00:39:08] So I’m like, oh my gosh, this is a huge thing. This is like, you know, this is the big strategic frame. And so I put a proposal that I thought would actually get them to the outcomes. You know, one that included identifying their executive competencies, doing 360, um, and a whole bunch of other things. And at the time, I think my proposal was like five times what the competitors were.

[00:39:30] And so they were all like, kind of whining. They’re like, oh my God, we’re gonna have to like, break the bank to work with Betsy. And something came over me that has like fueled me for the past 15 years as a business owner. I’m like, that other person is like, they’re an expense to be managed. I’m not an expense to be managed.

[00:39:44] I’m an investment that will deliver return. And I, and they were signed with me on the spot. They signed for a second contract, they referred me to somebody else for similar, and now I’m off and running and that’s how my business, you know, really started getting kicked off. So the issue is, is you have to assume if you’re gonna position yourself strategically.

[00:40:02] You have to imagine that, number one, you wanna be able to measure the ROI at some point, so have clarity that I need to really be thinking about what is the business performance gap that I’m really here to solve, not implement this methodology. You have to be clear in your mind that I want to be able to deliver return.

[00:40:20] Two, when the client asks you, you know, for whatever it is, you have to assume that whatever they’re asking for is not correct and is not going to solve their problem. And you have to assume that anything that you pitch. And that initial discovery meeting is also gonna be wrong because you don’t know the client yet.

[00:40:35] You’re not there yet. You don’t know. You don’t know enough because you don’t know their goals. So you have to assume everybody’s wrong until you get clear on what the goal is. And then once you’re cleared, then you could say, okay, now this is the success solution. This is really what it’ll take to get you from where you are today to where you wanna be.

[00:40:55] So you wanna be clear in the discovery meeting or the intro call, or whatever you call it, I call it partnership setup, is the clients here, they wanna be there. It’s a gap. You wanna be able to get them to articulate why it matters, what’s the value of bridging the gap? And then you want them to articulate what is the value that you’re supposed to bring to the table, and how does working with you sweeten that deal?

[00:41:19] Like, if you can’t get those four things out of your intro call, your discovery meeting, your, you know, partnership, setup, conversation, whatever it is, if you can’t hit those four things, it’s gonna be really hard to strategically position yourself in that way. So you have to be really clear and you have to get them to say it.

[00:41:35] So sometimes, like when we’ve been working on things and you’ll say, well, you know, here’s, you know, here’s some thoughts, or here’s what this other colleague said. It’s like, no, no, no. We need them to say it. They have to say it because then you can, this is how you shape their thinking, is you go back and say, oh my gosh, you know.

[00:41:51] So and so you said that this is what you wanna accomplish. This is why it’s valuable. Am I right? Did I get that right? And they’re like, yes. Then when you give a solution that’s more significant, it creates more value, and your fees are at a different level, you could honestly say to get to your outcome.

[00:42:09] You know, this is at least a 10 to one, you’re gonna get a 10 to one, 101 return because you got them to articulate what they want.

[00:42:15] Katie: And this is so important, this positioning and this conversation for internal leaders who are, you’re not, you know, pitching a, a money for a contract on this, but it’s like you’re positioning the, the why.

[00:42:26] Like, I get a lot of, you know, internal change leaders who are listening. They’re, you know, they’re facilitators, they’re lean consultants, agile consultants, and then we lead with the methodology. We’re, we’re limiting the, the possibility. So it’s really about helping those leaders articulate what is the outcome that they’re trying to get to, and then position yourself.

[00:42:45] Not as just the service provider to get there, but truly is that partner, that transformational change leader partner that’s going to help not just do the one small thing, but the achieve the bigger vision for what the organization really needs.

[00:42:58] Betsy: And that’s where the moment of truth happens, whether you’re an internal, external, the moment of truth is how you handle that conversation.

[00:43:05] If you outsource it to somebody else or you just say yes, that’s going to cap your potential. So as an internal consultant, it’s really important that you shape the work. You don’t let the client shape the work like it’s picturing, like if you’re playing air hockey and you’re having the conversation with a client.

[00:43:20] You know the client’s saying, I want you to do this, I want you to do this, I want you to do this. And you could be playing defense, you know? Or what you could do is you take your paddle and bam, put it on the hockey puck and you start controlling the conversation. Not because you’re controlling, but you wanna do what’s in their best interest.

[00:43:35] You have to always remember that what they asked for isn’t what they need. And if I don’t take a step back and say this is what they need, this is going to give them the ROI like, that’s where your confidence comes from, is I want to make a bigger difference, and whatever they ask for is going to be wrong and whatever I try to pitch.

[00:43:54] So I’m not gonna ask, I’m not gonna pitch this until I understand. What it is I’m here to solve.

[00:43:59] Katie: So this is really what brings us to that third element of the strategic positioning that when you are able to frame and position yourself as a strategic partner than just another service provider, there’s something powerful that happens.

[00:44:12] So what actually shifts Betsy when you are able to do that successfully?

[00:44:17] Betsy: So the first level is like big picture of like creating the association where you fit in standout, so the right people are calling you. Second level is I position myself against the right work. The third is positioning myself and the role that I want, which is that strategic partner.

[00:44:32] It’s not necessarily even just getting the right work framed up, it’s when you have the ability to shape the conversation. Now your strategic partner, and the thing is about executives is they love that. My biggest credibility booster that I get all the time is my framing and empathy skills. What executives love is when I can give them clarity of like, this is what they want.

[00:44:52] Now I’m automatically their thinking partner. So if I could do this in the initial partnership setup conversation, it’s like I’m already a partner because I’ve already demonstrated through my actions and through how we’re shaping up the work, that I know how to organize their thoughts and their ideas, and that they, they can trust me as their thinking partner.

[00:45:10] And that when I do this, I’m in their best, you know, I have their best interests at heart. One of my early client opportunities I had, long story short, they had like weird payment terms that I wasn’t comfortable with. It was something like they were gonna pay me like $8,000 for an org design a month, but then they can cancel it within like a couple days or I can cancel it in a couple days.

[00:45:29] And I’m like, that’s not ethical. Like that’s not gonna work. Um, and then they came back to me later. For an even bigger project because one, they respected that I said no to that kind of thing because it wasn’t in their best interest. But then also they said that they got more value out of the way. I handled that discovery meeting, partnership set out process than they, than they had at any other point in time.

[00:45:50] So they trusted me with bigger stuff. So when you are taking control of the conversation, so 50% of it is, I’m taking control of the conversation. I’m really helping, creating huge value for these executives, organizing their thoughts and ideas and, and giving them clarity. But then once you land the work or the work is beginning, you have to be explicit about contracted expectations.

[00:46:12] So one of the things I always suggest when you’re starting a work, work with a client so that you’re positioned properly all along the way, is one you wanna, you know, obviously you wanna ask the client, like, you know, you’ve worked with other consultants in the past, you know, what would you like to see replicated in our relationship?

[00:46:27] What do you appreciate? And then you say, I want to ask for these things for me, what I need in order to deliver great work for you. And number one is I need access to information. I need access to data, access to what, you know, access. The second thing I need is I need to have an ability to have an independent point of view.

[00:46:48] And then third is I need to have the permission to raise difficult issues. And when you are establishing that and the client agrees to it, at some point, like if you’re a consultant and you’re trying to do organizational change of any kind, transformation, you know there’s always gonna be a point where the leader that you’re working with is the problem.

[00:47:07] And so you’re gonna find out through the data or through some other things that they’re the problem. And so when it’s time to raise those issues, you can go back to that agreement and say, Hey, remember what we agreed on raising the difficult issues And that I’m gonna have an independent point of view.

[00:47:21] You know, this is that opportunity.

[00:47:23] Katie: And you’re referencing a lot of what I recently talked about this, like this doer trap we get into. It’s because you’re not positioning yourself as that strategic thought partner as the shaper. And you know, the, the how to get to the what. So you’ve helped them define the what, and now you’re really responsible for shaping that.

[00:47:41] How that’s the part you’re doing. You’re not actually doing the, you know, surrogate leadership is one of the role, the doer traps that we talked about, or the pair of hands. So there, so it’s about really how do you shape that conversation from the beginning And so important to, to give yourself then that permission or give that conversation, gives you the permission to come back and have those hard conversations.

[00:48:01] And that is part of your role as a strategic, um, advisor or, or change agent as well.

[00:48:06] Betsy: So like as it relates to your people. Like, so for lean, continuous improvement people. I feel like that there’s an opportunity to step outside of your functional area of expertise and use your systems thinking. So when you think about like there’s, there’s internal partners who are strategic, where they align their expertise to the business outcomes.

[00:48:25] Like that’s the, that’s good. That’s better than not being aligned. But if you could step outside of that, your functional area, and really just leverage your systems thinking, the executives understanding the senior executive, everybody on their executive team is kind of like, they, they only see a little part and there isn’t anybody who has that vantage point.

[00:48:44] So you have the opportunity to step out of whatever box you have in your org chart to step out and be that thinking partner because you have systems thinking. You know, like that’s what’s really powerful about you. You understand how all these inputs and outputs, you understand how all the parts of the business work together.

[00:49:02] You’re one of the few within the organization who shares the same vantage point as your senior executive. And so that’s where you have an opportunity to take your strategic position, just like one, one further step beyond even. I just wanna align what I do to the business outcomes is like I wanna step outside and just use the power of my strengths and use the power of my systems thinking to help my executive see things differently and be that sounding board.

[00:49:29] Katie: We’ve touched on so many of the elements, which are in my catalyst change leader model, and I’ll put some information in the show notes too for how people can go and make, have their own assessment on a lot of these skills that Betsy and I are talking about how here, how to like navigate politics. How do you like leverage your system thinking, how do you speak the language of business and really connect the methodology that you know is gonna help with those business outcomes that the leaders need So, so much more in there.

[00:49:54] Betsy, before we wrap up, I wanna hear some insights of what you’ve learned as well, uh, from your own, taking some time away to think about your position and some changes you’ve had as well. And like, what’s one key learning you’ve had from your own process as a brand positioning expert to reposition your

[00:50:13] Betsy: own

[00:50:14] Katie: work?

[00:50:15] Betsy: Uh, you can’t do it on your own. You’re way too close. It’s really, really hard to do on your own. So, um, like, yeah, I, I, I’m on, I took a sabbatical to rethink like where I wanna take my business. And what’s so interesting after being in business for 15 years is that every pivot point is like another crossroads.

[00:50:34] It’s like whatever you might have in place, like this is where you and I started working together, is you were ready to elevate your strategic positioning and that’s where your messaging became really important and getting clarity. ’cause now I’m like, I’m in the step change. So now like I’m in the step change.

[00:50:48] Like I’m trying to step into more of a legacy kind of place. I’ve been in the business for 30 years, you know, it’s like it’s time for me to step up, step up. But it’s so hard to see it for yourself. Like we’re just too close. Like it’s, you know, seeing the label from the inside of the jar. And I realized, like, because I was so close, I was doing what a lot of my clients do is I was trying to position myself against pain points.

[00:51:08] You know, like, oh, okay, you lack clarity and confidence. You know, like that’s the main thing. It’s like, no, that’s one part of it. You know, for me, my, my strategic positioning. And it’s like, it’s almost like a dumb moment. Like I, I don’t know how I didn’t see it. Like my entire career has been, I’m the person that people come to when they’re in some sort of really important career crossroads.

[00:51:27] And I think I got confused about, ’cause like, I’m like, oh, well the only career crossroads people are at is when they’re just leaving corporate and starting their own business. You know? And I didn’t see, it’s like, no, everybody I work with is at a career kawas. Like, they’re, they’re not trying to, they’re trying to land more strategic work.

[00:51:42] You know, they’re trying to uplevel their, their, um, their image in the market. They’re trying to do something bigger and different. I. And it’s like I couldn’t see it and I got all caught up in, in the same things that my clients do and it was like taking me forever. And then I’m like, you know, I just need to work my process.

[00:51:59] And so I worked my process, I went and I analyzed all of my surveys, just like I did with you is I analyzed like all of your client feedback and I got your positioning. So it’s like I got a little bit more objective, but then I asked you like, like you’re my avatar. You know, like you’re the one that I wanna work with.

[00:52:16] And so what was really funny is like, like you gave me a Christmas card and I, you wrote a note and you probably didn’t think anything about the note. I had your note sitting there next to next to my computer with every single thing that I was working on with my messaging. And I would like open up the note and look at it.

[00:52:31] It’s like, okay, step up in your next level of success and impact. You helped me elevate my success and impact. Like, okay, that’s what I’m trying to do. And so it’s goes back to like people are telling you, we just have to not. Put our own stuff on it. Like when I stopped like trying to put the brand word too much on it and you kept saying No, it’s positioning, it’s like, okay Jess, I need to listen.

[00:52:52] Or like that client, uh, my client Brad, who was telling, who used me all the time, and he is like, no, it’s when people are misaligned. If I would say one thing that you need to do, one thing to improve your strategic positioning in general, it would be, is to really listen for the situation or context that people think about you and don’t add more words to it.

[00:53:12] Don’t put anything on it. Don’t repeat back and what you wanna hear, listen to what they say and ask more questions. The value of what you create is going to naturally emerge. So it’s very clear for me the value that you create, Katie, is because when people have hit the point where they’ve invested in the tools and projects, or they invested in all this stuff, they hit this wall and then then they meet you.

[00:53:34] Now you have this holistic approach. The value proposition becomes clear. But if we just kept trying to talk about the holistic approach outside of understanding the situation that came before it, we wouldn’t be able to have any compelling words. You know, it’s much more compelling, like, oh, you’ve hit the wall of what you’ve been able to create in your lean transformation career.

[00:53:55] Come to Japan because I’m gonna break you through that wall and help you re you know, take, take what you have and take it to the next level. Like there’s more things that we could say when we really understand that context. And so that’s what I needed to do. But putting the strategic frame, you need the strategic frame in order to be strategically positioned.

[00:54:13] And that’s what I had to figure out that, and it was impossible to do on my own. I had to ask you, I had to ask, um, Carol, who was on your show, you know, like, give me outside perspective, you know, ’cause I’m missing something. And then it’s like, oh, okay, so it’s all of these people at these different crossroads.

[00:54:28] Now I see this. And then it’s like, okay, now it’s super clear. That doesn’t mean that the messaging automatically flows because you know, there’s, there’s messaging for your networking. There’s messaging for your website. There’s messaging when you’re trying to land work. But it’s like really work the process.

[00:54:45] But then for your internal consultants that would say in general, for your internal consultants, the number one thing I would say that you need to do is master the pivot. I do have a freebie on my website, which is like my discovery meeting script that will give a little bit more insight into the pivot Master.

[00:55:03] That pivot, like that’s the most important thing. Client asks you for anything and you just validate like, oh my God, that’s so awesome. I’m so glad you asked me that. But before I get, anyway, let’s back up and let’s talk about what’s going on in the business. Look for the strategic frame.

[00:55:18] Katie: I highly recommend people go get that, uh, that framework because it’s been truly tally impactful for me to have that pivot as well and not fall into that trap of just saying, yeah, I can do that.

[00:55:31] I. I can do that, but more importantly, what is the problem I’m really trying to help people solve? And then how can my unique strengths be the way that get them there? And so that’s why I’m so passionate too, about helping change leaders and, uh, and consultants to step into that power too, because I really believe that’s how we’re all going to really create these high performing people-centered learning cultures.

[00:55:54] We can’t lead with lean, we can’t lead with the methodology. We have to lead with the why and shape that conversation of the how we’re gonna get there. So Betsy, thank you so much. I will keep sharing insights that I’ve gleaned from our conversations in many, many places in the work we do. It’s been a pleasure having you on here and having you help me step into that next level as well.

[00:56:16] Over the last three years that we’ve been working together, and it really echoes my, my belief that one plus one equals much more than two. So. People listening, please like ask the people around you. Leverage the people who can help you. Reach out to Betsy, reach out to me. We’d love to help you continue to uplevel your influence and your position as well.

[00:56:36] So thanks Betsy, for coming on today.

[00:56:37] Betsy: Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for just for the privilege of being a part of your chain of learning. I learned from you every single day. Your positive energy just inspires me every single day. So thank you so much.

[00:56:50] Katie: As Betsy and I explored here, positioning is a vital skill to develop.

[00:56:54] If you really wanna be a transformational change leader or consultant, not just a service provider or doer of improvement. Remember, no one will use your expertise the way you want them to. You have to shape that understanding. Elevating your positioning comes from helping your clients articulate outcomes they need, and defining the strategic frame of the problem to solve.

[00:57:15] And then aligning your messaging about the value you bring and the way you will help your clients get to that destination. As I shared in this conversation, one of the most important skills I’ve learned from Betsy is how to pivot the conversation with clients from taking the work they’ve initially requested to shaping the conversation of the outcomes they need, the value of those outcomes from a strategic lens, and then how I can help them get there.

[00:57:39] I’m not a master at it yet, though I get better with each iteration. Pivoting the conversation has been a game changer for me in upleveling my engagements while I still design and facilitate workshops, give inspirational talks, and provide trusted advisory coaching to clients. The work, the how is framed in a much bigger engagement and the problem I’m helping them solve.

[00:58:01] I’ve moved from being a workshop service provider, maybe more of how I was seeing when I started my external consulting business to positioning myself as truly a transformational partner with my clients. I encourage you to download Betsy’s Meeting Discovery Script and to connect with Betsy by visiting her website, connecting on LinkedIn, and listening to her podcast Consulting Matters.

[00:58:22] I’ll put the links for all of these in the show notes for your next client conversation. Whether you’re an internal change leader or external consultant, don’t say an immediate yes to whatever your client is asking of you. Shape the discussion and reposition yourself from the doer or service provider of a methodology to a trusted advisor and transformational partner in their journey to achieve needed business results.

[00:58:47] And as I always remind you, be sure to reflect. How did the conversation go? What was different? What did you learn? What was the impact for your clients and for you? What do you need to adjust and keep learning your way forward to greater impact? If you want even more insights about how you can pivot the conversation with your clients, how you can create a better business case for the work you do, and for lean and continuous improvement practitioners, specifically about how you can position your value in the impact of lean and continuous improvement in your organization.

[00:59:18] Betsy and I kept talking after we wrapped up the recording of this episode, and the video of this recording is up on YouTube in link to on the full podcast episode page chain of learning.com/four one. Along with other podcast episodes and resources we’ve referenced, and as I highlighted earlier, I’ve created a model of eight core competencies that you need to master to become an influential change leader, many of which Betsy and I touched on in this episode you haven’t already done.

[00:59:44] So. Be sure to download my free catalyst self-assessment at k bj anderson.com/catalyst, spelled with a K, and go back to listen to episode nine of Chain of Learning to learn more about each competency. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow chain of learning on your favorite podcast player. So you never miss a future episode and share it with your colleagues and friends so we can all strengthen our chain of learning together.

[01:00:09] Thanks for being the link in my chain of learning today. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day.