Doing the Right Thing: Japanese Management Masterclass Part 1 with Tim Wolput

[00:00:00] Tim Wolput: We have a tendency to reward the result, right? With our kids as well. We say they get good points, good job, and so we praise the results. But at the Toyota and other classical Japanese style companies, they wouldn’t say, I mean, they would say great job, but the thing they would praise is not the result.

[00:00:17] They would praise the process.

[00:00:20] Katie: Welcome the chain of learning for the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you. To build a people-centered learning culture, get results, and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy.

[00:00:36] I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson. Have you ever wondered how much of the Toyota way, what we know is lean thinking, lean management, or production is dependent on Japanese culture to be successful? How much of it is due to Toyota’s unique culture, or how much is just grounded in our shared humanity?

[00:00:55] I. When I moved to Japan in 2015 for nearly two years with my family, I went on a mission to discover the answer to these questions, and it’s a framework that I now use when guiding the learning journey of global leaders who participate in my Japan leadership experience as they explore the answer to these questions themselves.

[00:01:14] As you’ll hear in this episode, one of the biggest myths that I debunked during my time living in Japan was that Toyota culture is not the same as Japanese culture. Yet deeply understanding the roots of Japanese culture and management practices has enriched my understanding of the principles, behaviors, and methods fundamental to Toyota’s success, and has helped me more effectively translate these principles into other cultures and organizations and help their leaders do the same.

[00:01:42] Along my learning journey, just weeks before my family and I repatriated to the United States, I met Tim Wil putt, a Japan Ologist and Toyota Way management expert who from the time of our first meeting became a close friend. And now since 2023 is my in-country partner and translator from my immersive Japan leadership learning experiences.

[00:02:03] Originally from Belgium. Tim has lived in Japan since 1999 where he attended Tokyo University Graduate School. Tim is a certified Toyota Wave management system expert and a consultant to global organizations on Lean Agile in the Toyota production system. He’s also the 2005 World Champion in Aikido. Tim rivals me in positive energy, a quest for learning and sharing with others, and we are a force of enthusiasm to be reckoned with when we’re together, especially during karaoke.

[00:02:32] I invited Tim to chain of learning to share just a glimpse of his rich experiences and insights about Japanese culture and history and the principles and practices behind the Toyota Way. Our conversation span nearly an hour and a half, so I’ve broken it into two episodes. In this episode, part one of our conversation, we go back in time in Japanese history to the teachings of Confucius and Japan’s Samurai culture, the way of the warrior and rice farming history, as well as w Edwards Deming’s influence on Japanese management following World War ii.

[00:03:04] And we explore the differences in approaches to leadership and management between Japan and the western world. In the next episode, part two, we continue along our path of knowledge to explore the nuances of concepts like kata, a, moi, and obeya. All elements of cultural and business experiences we intentionally include in my Japan leadership experience programming, and we explore how Tim’s martial arts background has enriched his understanding of leadership through learning by doing.

[00:03:33] If you’ve ever wanted a mini masterclass in Japanese leadership and how to create cultures of excellence globally, these episodes are for you. One of the biggest objections, both Tim and I here, whether lean or the toyed away management can work in someone’s organization, is we’re not Japanese or we’re not a car manufacturer.

[00:03:51] So I wanted to start there. I asked him, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that Westerners have about Toyota Way management practices, and if they can work in other cultures, let’s dive in.

[00:04:03] Tim Wolput: I’ve spent most of my time in Japan figuring out the difference between, uh, Japan and the West. So in 2019, actually.

[00:04:11] Uh, together with, uh, my mentor, Mr. Takagi, who, uh, used to be vice president of the Toyota Management Institute. So we went to Houston to join the Lean Summit and, which was great because we could, you know, observe Ginche Kmsu right there at the place, you know, the similarities and the differences. And, uh, so I remember talking with, uh, Takagi sensei and, and, and, and saying, wow, we’re in this completely different country.

[00:04:37] You know, people we’ve never met, but we can feel like we, we share similar kind of sentiments or a shared sense of values, uh, which I think is, you know, we are all there. We’re not just talking about me, me, me. We’re looking for to see, you know, the work that we do should be meaningful, should, you know, uh, we should make someone happy, which we call customer value, of course.

[00:04:57] And then it should give us, uh, energy. So that was a great thing to observe that you had this, this, yeah, things that bind us regardless of, uh, of culture. I’m wondering actually, Katie, what do you consider as a, you know, from your perspective? The differences first of all?

[00:05:13] Katie: Yeah. Oh great. Flipping, flipping it.

[00:05:15] Yeah. And this is, uh, a great example of how Tim and I are, have been great partners in tag team learners together, uh, for many years too. And it was really fantastic to have TGI Sensei and you both come out to Houston in 2019 before the pandemic. And I was there as well at the Lean Summit, you know, over the last 10 years, which is almost.

[00:05:34] The time that we met, um, nine years ago at the time of this recording when I was living in Tokyo. That’s been an interesting topic for me too, about what are those differences and similarities. And this is the same framework as you know, that I used to facilitate that conversation with people who come on my Japan leadership experience about what is it that is.

[00:05:54] Specific to sort of Toyota’s culture, what’s Japanese culture and maybe what are some more human elements? And this is something I was inspired by, by a framework that John Shook had put out to me. There’s a, it goes back to a lot of these common elements about humanity as well, the shared things about wanting and desiring a connection to deeper purpose and meaning in life.

[00:06:15] Learning and wanting to improve. It’s just the approach sometimes that we take on that, and I, my experience in the West is we get so focused on the short term outcomes rather than longer term thinking. And I think Japan and Japanese businesses, I. For the most part have been more effective in retaining that sort of longer term view.

[00:06:34] Doesn’t mean that western companies don’t have that, but we have a lot of companies that have shareholders and are really focused on that short term. I see too that we tend to glom onto the tools rather than the underlying principles, like we want the quick fix. Maybe this tied to our short term approach too, so getting really excited by the tools, but not necessarily seeing the leadership behaviors.

[00:06:55] That are really tied to making those successful. Um, but I think that those are things that people can have aha moments of. And there are parts of Japanese culture, as you know, and I wanna dive in with you here today. That really helped create this Toyota Wave management system. But it’s not, I. Something that I believe is only inherent to Japanese people.

[00:07:15] Tim Wolput: Yeah. And so you touched, uh, on uh, things that, you know, similar things that I noticed and recently I saw this, I actually, I resaw the, uh, great documentary, it’s, uh, American documentary about why, why can the Japanese do it and we can’t. And it’s about, you know, how Japan in the, uh, the eighties they got to this place where they were making better quality products.

[00:07:37] Uh, being far more productive than, uh, than the West. And so interestingly, you know, it’s, it has a lot to do with, uh, Dr. Deming. Of course, he described it as follows. So he said, like the Americans, they look at, uh, at number of points of, of the, of, of the, know the philosophy of, uh, of Deming. And they pick the parts that they like and they kind of ignore all the rest that they, they don’t understand or they don’t like.

[00:08:03] So that’s why, you know, it, it never really took off, uh, until of course now, you know, you bump into obstacles and then you kind of get aware of, uh, things not really working. But in Japan, you know, in the, in the fifties when Deming went to Japan, and we’ll talk about that in a moment though, that Japan has never been averse to foreign knowledge and wisdom.

[00:08:24] And so the Japanese, they, they, of course, they knew about Deming. So they asked, all right, can you help us with, you know, bringing, uh, Japan up to a higher level quality wise? And so the, the main thing why Deming’s ideas found really fertile ground in Japan, I think has to do with, with the, uh, latent aspects of the culture.

[00:08:45] I’m sure you know the word, Japanese word, sh hari, which is, uh, it’s the way, the traditional way of learning sohu means, uh, to observe and, uh, follow the form. You do basically what the master says, and then, uh, ha means you are going to kind of apply your, uh, what you’ve learned by ma uh, following the master’s forms and you’re going to change it a little bit, improve the standard, so to speak.

[00:09:13] And then the re is when, when you’ve mastered it. When you’ve become a master, you’re going your own way. You’re going to find new ways to explore. And so the thing, the thing we’re observing, you know, in the, uh, when, when Deming was trying to do the si similar things in America is in the West, we are, we don’t have this idea of sharri.

[00:09:32] We all already want to jump in and, and think and, and, and to do all this stuff without actually, you know, having mastered or having tried the pharma as is. And, and so in Japan, when Deming was saying, look, this is the system, this is the order of things. Giving like the recipe, how to make, uh, a certain kind of dish.

[00:09:53] And the Japanese would follow it, uh, to the comma. Uh, and then learn, you know, after know experiencing it and then adding some twists, uh, to it. And we saw, we saw what it, uh, gave the Japanese, of course. Follow the what? Follow the form. Then, uh, make it better and then go into a whole new, uh, direction, which, you know, we, we is what basically happened with Toyota production system, Toyota Way management system, Obeya, and all these things.

[00:10:18] Katie: Such an important point that you, you called out and I wanted to, uh, mention a few things. So one is that, that history of Deming’s influence on Japan, as you said, is part of what created the. The Toyota Way. And you know, Mr. Yoshino talks about how influential the concept of plan do check act, or what plan do, study Adjust has been on creating that kaizen culture at Toyota.

[00:10:43] And I actually talked to John Willis on a previous episode of Chain of Learning. John came with with me in, you had a chance to meet him back a few, uh, cohorts ago on the Japan learning experience about Deming’s influence. He’s written a book on that. So if you, if listeners haven’t yet checked that out, uh, we’ll put the links in the show notes.

[00:11:00] RI concept that really stood out to me just as, and as part of Japanese culture when I was, for, when I first lived in Japan, that, you know, the level of excellence in pursuing excellence is, uh, but based a lot of, he on foreign concepts was so profound. You would see there’s so many Michelin star restaurants of, you know, Italian food, French food, all these foreign foods because.

[00:11:21] The Japanese chefs, they go to the gamba, they go learn and study, you know, in the source, and they come back and make it even better. And, you know, I saw so many cases of this, of, you know, foreign concepts that were like improved upon and, and made better. You go back to the, you know, Toyota production system, and I’ll let you talk more about this, but you know, when the Toyotas were first going out to, you know, visit.

[00:11:42] Europe and America, you know, at the time of, you know, before the world, before World War ii, they were inspired by concepts like the, you know, the, the poll system and the supermarket and, and others. And they brought it back and incorporated it into like the best of the concepts from Japan and created something even more powerful and better the two, Japan and foreign.

[00:12:02] Concepts together made something even more powerful, which became the Toyota Way.

[00:12:06] Tim Wolput: Exactly. And so, you know, with Theshari, uh, element, I think it ties into what you said, like the short term thinking and the long term thinking because you know, sharri it when you, when you follow the idea of sharri. It’s kind of like you are walking a path to a perfection, unattainable perfection, maybe.

[00:12:24] But it’s, it, it gives this, this broad idea, this picture of where you would like to go in the, in the, in the distance. Right. And versus when you just pick like elements is, it doesn’t have any direction to it. So, and of course you always talk about intention and so I feel that theshari is kind of, it gave the Japanese the advantage.

[00:12:47] To dig deep and aim far and then just to, you know, uh, the short term is there as well, but it’s the short term with intention. And so they made these steps. And so on a, on a different note, so talking about PDCA, there’s another element, uh, as well that really made a difference why Japan embraced PDCA. And that’s, that has to do with Confucius, of course.

[00:13:10] Uh, you know, Confucius, who is, uh, you know, a Chinese philosopher, ancient China, 2,500 years ago. And, uh, his wisdoms are collected in a series of books, uh, with the analog is one of them. And, uh, and so they contain like these very different mini stories wherein, you know, Confucius Councils, the ancient leaders of, uh, of, uh, of classic, uh, China.

[00:13:35] And one of the things that, you know, if, if I would put the, the whole, uh, analog into one phrase, it’s Do the right thing. And so do the writing is really interesting. Um, and at one point, so the, uh, former assistant of Mat Kowski, who was the, uh, the founder of Panasonic, right? And so I’ve had a chance to work with him multiple times, and he’s in the study tour.

[00:13:58] Uh, you know, you, you’ve met him, uh, I think twice or maybe three times. Yeah. And so, uh, anyway, at one point he said to me, yeah, Tim, uh, it’s very easy to ha to be successful. You just have to do the right thing, like, uh, Confucius, uh, thought. And, and so I said, yeah, but sensei, uh, how do I know whether I’m doing the right thing?

[00:14:17] And then he looked me in the eye and he said, well, you have to think, uh, really hard for yourself about that. And so I thought at first he was, you know, trying to get off easy. But then, you know, upon further reflection, I thought it’s, it’s definitely respect for people because, you know, we, we have a brain we can think, uh, for ourselves.

[00:14:34] And so it means that, first of all, what am I trying to establish? Which is a purpose of course. And then, which are the actions that I’m going to do? And are the am am I doing the right actions? Will they bring me further so it creates this whole PDCA kind of thing. So I would argue that rather than Deming, et cetera, it’s confusion who actually, uh, gave the blueprint for PDCA.

[00:14:57] And as we know, Confucius ideas, they found strong, uh, foothold in Japan in the Samurai, uh, you know, the Japan of the Japanese Samurai. And they call it Chico, which means knowledge and action are one. They already had that fertile ground and then de came, talked about PDCA and they said, we know this.

[00:15:19] Katie: Yes.

[00:15:19] It’s like the, the, the structure of PDCA gave the process to really put that foundation into place, and perhaps that’s one of our challenges. In the West, we don’t have as much of that deep foundation always and do the right thing. It doesn’t mean if it doesn’t exist, but culturally that is really, really strong there as well.

[00:15:38] Tim Wolput: So it’s an interesting observation I made. So it’s of course it’s stereotype though. But my feeling is that in, uh, in Asia it’s all about, uh, do the right thing we want to do right in Asia. Whereas in the West, I feel like people want to be right, which means it’s, uh, many times, you know, especially smart people.

[00:15:59] And, and you talk about that often with leaders. They’re smart and they know they’re right and they want to be right, and so they’re going to win the intellectual discussion. And so it, it, it creates a different kind of, uh, idea of moving forward. So, so that’s something I found recently as well. So Deming, he, he said he didn’t believe in competition.

[00:16:21] He didn’t, so he, he said, you know, we, we move forward through cooperation, through helping each other. And then you, you move, you progress. Uh, however, you know, in the west, uh, and we can see this happening right now, most of you know, the free market and all these things, they’re based on the competition, uh, principles.

[00:16:41] And so it is to be right means you are going to, you know, get, make sure that you are right and you win, uh, the discussion or whatever it is you’re doing. Versus the do right means you’re going, involving the people and you’re going to move forward. And I have, uh, so I, I researched this when I was at university in, uh, in Belgium when I was doing Japanese studies.

[00:17:04] I. I, I think the difference has a lot to do with what the, what the Japanese are eating and what the west is eating. So basically, to put it really simple, it’s rice culture versus wheat culture, which lies, uh, at the foundation of, of, uh, of this difference.

[00:17:20] Katie: Uh, Tim, I’d love for you to explain a little bit more to listeners.

[00:17:24] You know, this is something we talk about as we’re going through all the different rice fields on our Japan trips, but how does that difference in culture of what we eat and how we produce things impact this? You know, really the deep foundation for this.

[00:17:39] Tim Wolput: So rice, in fact, it’s, uh, it’s very hard to grow.

[00:17:42] Uh, and historically, of course, you could see like, and we’ve seen some of this in the, in Japan, you know, the village, the small villages with the rice. Pads, et cetera, and it, it takes the whole village. Everyone in the village needs to cooperate in order to, you know, successfully harvest, uh, the rice. And it involves many different chores.

[00:18:00] So people, not all, people are not going to do the same things. They’re going to do many different things and they need to do it, uh, synchronized with each other so that everything happens at the right moment in order to successfully harvest the rice. Now if we look at wheat, which is very easy to grow, and you know, in the olden days when they didn’t have a lot of, uh, technology, it just took like a couple of people, like a farmer and, and maybe one or two assistants and they could already, you know, uh, grow, uh, wheat and, and harvested it with no problem.

[00:18:31] When they had a little bit more of technology, one farmer and he could do like acres and acres of, uh, of wheat. And we see this, you know, America is a ni a fine example of these huge patches of, of wheat. And then there there’s like one farmer with the tractors doing all, all the thing, right? So, but you know, the big difference there of course is you have, uh, the whole village needing to work together in order to survive.

[00:18:55] You have like individual, more a small team, individual based endeavors to provide, uh, you know, food in order to survive. Now there’s a second element there as well, and that is that Rice provides 70 to 80% of the daily nutrition, whereas wheat only provides 30%. So it means that in Japan, uh, only, they’re only having to look for 20, may 30 to 20%.

[00:19:20] Of other things elsewhere versus in the West, in weed based cultures, they have to kind of find 70% elsewhere, which means that, you know, in a Japanese village. Uh, they don’t have this, uh, drive to trade very much. It beca it means that trade and commerce becomes more static versus in the west you have to get, you know, your 70%.

[00:19:44] So it means you’re desperately going and it’s not in the same group. You’re going outside of your small, in individual, uh, based, uh, element. And you go, you go and find stuff from other people. Now, the implications are pretty interesting because in Japan, traditionally, of course. Static trade, which means that you are not easily going to find people who are willing to trade, right?

[00:20:09] So it means if you get hold of, if you establish a relationship with a person, uh, you are going to cherish the relationship. You are going to make sure that it lasts. So it’s that longevity. That, uh, that follows from Rise culture, right? So there’s another thing as well, uh, this aside from the longevity, and it’s the quality because, you know, focus on quality, quality actually means trust.

[00:20:32] I. So, uh, so you are going to make sure you, you, you establish the relationship and you’re not going to, uh, kind of provide good enough things just there. So, because you know it, it’s not going to build a trust. You’re going to provide, try to provide that quality. And we see, you know, this Japanese obsessive behavior with regards to quality, uh, which of course, you know, uh, with thinking of Deming and that’s.

[00:20:57] Precisely what he was, uh, all about. The quality. It, you know, it, it shows, you know, the, it, it comes from the rise, the longevity, and establishing this long-term relationship versus the west where we have wheat and we have, like, if it doesn’t work with person A, you go to person B, person C, D, et cetera, because there’s a whole bunch of people looking for stuff.

[00:21:18] And so it means you’re not going there for the, the long-term relationship. You’re going for the swift. Uh, interaction and then if it works, fine. If it doesn’t work. Okay. And you can see quality is not something, establishing trust is not something, I mean, it’s important though, but it’s not as important to to, to go ahead as it was in, uh, in the, in all the Japan, of course.

[00:21:41] And I, I can already. Anticipate, uh, people saying yes, but they eat rice in Italy, risotto, and they eat like palella in Spain. That’s also rice. But the, the thing is, of course, they’re not going to eat risotto every day, right? Basically, what they’re going to eat, be eating they Italians is a paste or some, or maybe bread or whatever.

[00:22:01] So it’s what you eat daily. And so Dr. Johnson, he always said. Uh, like you are what you eat. And I think there’s a lot of truth, uh, in what he’s saying or what he said because he is long time, uh, dead Of course.

[00:22:14] Katie: One of the things that really stands out to me is, is the, the power of that supplier relationship that, you know, you see from Toyota and it’s tier one, tier two, tier three suppliers, and it, it really is directly linked to that, the strong relationship and they have mutual trust there, even though they are like strong quality and cost requirements.

[00:22:34] That say Toyota puts down to their suppliers, you know, we hear this when we go, you know, talk to the suppliers. It’s like, wow, we have a big challenge out there. But they know they’re not just gonna be cut out Toyota and, you know, comes in and helps them, helps ’em think about improvement. And so it is that symbiotic relationship and that long-term view and relat, uh, trust that really has created that ability for the true just in time system.

[00:22:57] And one of the challenges that we have in the West, because exactly what you described here. And one other comment around going back to this, like do the right thing and that, that long-term view, I, you know, it seems to me that that’s really tied to this concept of khi. Like it’s not, uh, in, in the, I always talk about intention, but intentions made up of this Japanese word, khi, which is, you know, samurai and hearts.

[00:23:19] Spirit and mind together. But it’s not just like your own intention for yourself. It’s about actually, it’s how do you do the right thing for the broader good? Like what’s your broader impact and then what actions do you need to take in the direction to really do that? And you know that that’s so imbued in the concept of leadership in Japan as well.

[00:23:39] Tim Wolput: So the thing is, so talking about leadership and, and Japanese style leadership. So it, it, you know, the base of modern Japan was, uh, uh, put up, was laid, uh, at the, uh, the end of the, uh, 19th century. And so before, you know, the leaders of Japan were the samurai, right? They were this military class, you know, they were governing Japan.

[00:24:00] And so the, the Samurai, of course, is linked to this idea, the way of the samurai. Uh, it’s, it’s this path to perfection, but you know. It’s not just about cutting off heads and the, and the, the whole marginality of the, and the violence of the thing, the samurai, we’re trying to kind of be, aim for perfection of body, mind, and heart, and it’s through daily, you know, practicing and, and, and putting.

[00:24:26] These ideas, walking this path towards perfection that they would, uh, would, uh, proceed. And so the interesting thing about this, so Bush, you, you, you can check it on, uh, on the internet and there’s a great book written about it. The Hagakure, I think it’s an 18th century, uh, book. I. Written by an anonymous, uh, samurai, it co it, it collects the wisdoms of, uh, the samurai.

[00:24:48] Anyway, so it states there that, you know, the samurai would, would daily reflect upon the mistakes that they made. It ties in with, you know, the knowledge and action R one, that Chicago, it’s, you have knowledge and it’s just that knowledge, but then you put it into practice and you are really learning.

[00:25:04] You’re changing the knowledge into wisdom. And if it works, I mean, then, then fine. If it doesn’t work, then. You’ve learned something and that’s, the wisdom is not result based. The wisdom is process based because you know, in the west, and, and I’m digressing it a little bit though, but we have a tendency to reward result, right?

[00:25:23] We said with our kids as well, we say they get good points. Good job. Fine. And so we praise the results. But at the Toyota and other, you know, classical Japanese style companies, they wouldn’t say great. I mean, they would say great job, but the thing they would praise is not the result. They would praise the process and if you’d fail.

[00:25:44] So if you didn’t get the result you’d expect, but you understood, you showed that you learned from the process, they would still praise you because they said, right, great job. You encountered a problem. Problem. But then you dug deep and you. Understood what the problem is all about. And you know, the Samurai were doing exactly the same thing.

[00:26:03] And so the talking about the Samurai and how they put they created this base for Japan is in fact the Samurai. They were the leaders of Japan, but also they were the teachers. Uh, Japan because schooling in Japan, uh, be before the 20th century was mainly done, uh, in, uh, what we call temple schools and in the temple schools.

[00:26:24] Uh, so these were these, you know, these small schools. And you can still, in near my house here, there’s this place where Yoshi d showing who is, uh, one of the great, uh, samurai figures of the, uh, end of the 19th century. And he would teach there and he’d, he’d teach the adults and kids, uh, alike, uh, mathematics, reading, writing.

[00:26:44] Above all confusion values because, you know, the samurai, they lived and they followed the, the, the philosophy of, uh, you know, do the right thing to be a good human being. You have to do the right thing, not know a bunch of stuff, but do the right thing. And so he was teaching in the people who would then later on, uh, create modern, uh, Japan.

[00:27:03] You would guide Japan into, uh, into modernity. And so if we look at. Who founded the Toyota, but also Mata Kowski, who founded Panasonic and, and a bunch of other people like Honda and all, you know, all the Japanese great companies that we came to admire. Their way of thinking, their philosophy all goes back to those ideas that were taught by the Samurai.

[00:27:26] Um. Yeah, there’s so, so many details of course, but we, we talk about Japanese capitalism, which, which is, uh, you know, the Japanese version of, uh, capitalism. The person who kind of shaped this idea of Japanese capitalism is shibu awa, and you can see him on the new, uh, 10,000, uh, bills in, in, when you’re in Japan and, and you’re using cash money.

[00:27:50] What, what he said he wrote is a really interesting book, and it’s called The Aex and the Abacus. And so it combines, it means that capitalism and our business should, of course, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s about money because, you know, business is always going to be about money, but we should also have this ethical side, uh, to it.

[00:28:10] So it’s, it’s, you know, it’s an ethical entrepreneurship that is, uh, being. You know, brought there early, uh, 20th, uh, century, end of the 19th century. And I think that had really a big impact. And it ties perfectly with, you know, what you were always saying with having intention and striving for something and, and doing the right thing.

[00:28:30] And as a leadership in Japan. If it’s just money, it means you are, uh, you, you are lacking. You are just talking from a knowledge, intellectual kind of ideas. And it lacks, it lacks, you know, the, the human side of things. And if you want to guide people and guide, you know, an organization. Towards the future in a, in a meaningful, sustainable way.

[00:28:52] You’re not going to get there with the, with the end signs of dollar signs because in the end, you know, who cares about, uh, in, in a company whether, you know, the CEO is going to be driving, uh, like the, the most expensive Tesla, cyber trucker, whatever. So it’s, it’s, it’s about the, the degree to which you can inspire people and you with the organization, do the right thing and move forward from there.

[00:29:15] Katie: That concept, that doing the right thing and, and, and also achieving business results, but through doing the right thing is so tangible when we are in Japan and, you know, talking to these leaders who really, really get it and all the Western leaders who join us on, on these programs come away saying, yes.

[00:29:32] This has really inspired me. I just talked with one of the leaders who’s come with us in the past and is sending more because he wants that same level of inspiration. It was a confirmation he said, of what he knew in his heart and gave him the confidence to do the right thing in his business. You know, as tying back to this.

[00:29:47] Concept of trying for profit. Of course, companies need profit, but, uh, you know, I’ve, I shared this quote before on the podcast of the book Tree Ring Management written by the chairman of one of the companies we go to. And, you know, profit is excrement, you know, he says, and that it’s. You know, it’s a natural byproduct of a healthy functioning company that’s doing the right thing for its body and for its functioning.

[00:30:11] So of course, we, we need and want that, but it shouldn’t be our, our, our sole focus or our goal. And then Mr. Yoshino also talks about how the difference of Toyota’s effectiveness in their hoshin Connery or their strategy deployment process is, is that very same thing you just highlighted, Tim? It’s. It’s, of course you want the end results.

[00:30:28] It’s not that we don’t want, we have goals, but it’s about the process to get there. So that PDCA process is more important than the actual result itself. And of course, you want that result. Whereas in the West, we tend to do management by objectives, and we just focus on the result only, and we don’t have those reflection and learning times to get there.

[00:30:46] And that ends up being a huge reason why. Oh, you know, we’re looking at it like the year and we don’t really even realize what happened or didn’t. So a huge thing for listeners of like, really how can you focus on process as the way to get to the result.

[00:31:00] Tim Wolput: Exactly. Yeah. But in fact, we’re talking about differences between the, uh, the Western Japan, right?

[00:31:05] So we are, we have process, and then if the process is right, I. It leads to a good result, it leads to the product or the service that’s true to us. That, I mean, that’s true, but there is a, a missing layer still there. And so when in, in Japan, in the end, it’s always, you know, we hear this o over and over again.

[00:31:23] It’s about the people, right? And, and so if we look at lean and all the ideas that are being thought, and it’s, it’s very, it’s a methodology. It’s, you have the, we’re talking about process improvements and all the things and the, and creating a great, uh, product. That’s fine, but we forget that actually it’s the people who are going to do, who are, you know, are going to do, do the processes, who is, who are going to improve the processes, who are going to build the products.

[00:31:49] And then of course they, they’re not going to build the products because the process says that they’re going to build the products like that. It’s because they want to make someone happy. They want to be, you know, have an impact, have meaningfulness there. You know, to, to change the world for the better, so to speak.

[00:32:04] And so when, uh, ina food talks about, uh, so the, the, the money is, is extra. And of course, in fact their way of thinking goes back to, uh, uh, Japanese farmer, super farmer, so to speak. His name is Ninom San Toku. And he’s a 19th century farmer who went from rags to riches and he, he’s a symbol of learning in Japan.

[00:32:26] So all the kids in school, my kids as well, they all hear about Nmia Sanko because he would, you know, from, as a small kid, he would. Continuously trying to improve himself, uh, and, and put it into practice, you know, and, and start with a small patch of, of land, which really, you know, you couldn’t grow anything on it.

[00:32:44] And through diligence and hard work and hard study, he’d, you know, make it, make it work. And then he, you know, he would share his wisdom with the whole village, then with the whole city or the whole province. And then in the end, he became an advisor of the Shogun, which is, you know, the big general, the big bus of, uh, of Japan.

[00:33:01] Anyway, so he always said, economy without virtue is a crime, and virtue without economy is gibberish. And I think that that’s, that’s the typical, you know, Japanese mindset. It’s, it’s, uh, it’s not just Aries philosophy stuff. Japanese people are really practical, but it’s, it’s practicality with a, with a, with a strong ethical dimension to it.

[00:33:24] And that’s what Chico. So, uh, as I’ve talked about, knowledge and action are one. It’s, it has this learn by doing element, but also the, the do what you say element. If you say, we are going to do this. Then, you know, you need to put the action where your, uh, where the money, where your mouth is, so to speak.

[00:33:43] And so that’s, that’s the blueprint for leadership in Japan as well. It, it, so it’s about reflection. It’s about, it’s about doing the right thing. And it’s definitely not just a bunch of mindset things and said, oh, we have to do all and all these things. It, it has a, a, a practicality, uh, it’s a daily practice in order to walk the path.

[00:34:03] To, uh, perfection.

[00:34:06] Katie: After we wrapped up our conversation for the podcast, the rest of which you can hear in the next episode. Tim recalled some seemingly strange yet powerful words of wisdom that his mentor, TAGT Ggi sensei, passed on to him about the way of the samurai. It was too good not to include here.

[00:34:22] Here’s Tim again.

[00:34:23] Tim Wolput: One of the weirdest things I was told by, uh, my Japanese, uh, mentor. Uh, you know, Mr. Akagi and he said, you know, in leadership it’s like, uh, and I think it, it perfectly fits with, with the, with often the things that, that you say. So it’s, you know, you have to be a samurai who cuts without pulling his sword.

[00:34:43] And I. He didn’t explain it to me. So, and I said, I thought, yeah, what what does it mean? And, and so in fact, we were with a bunch of leaders in the Obeya and, and the, and in the Obeya of course, you know, it’s, uh, it’s a place where, you know, you put leadership into practice. It’s the dojo actually the place where you practice, uh, leadership, right?

[00:35:04] And so, and he, he said, yeah, it’s like, you know, being a leader is like being a samurai, uh, who cuts without pulling a sword. I think, you know, it’s. Often you as a leader and you are smart, and, and, and so we have a tendency of trying to solve things and fix things ourselves because we, we know we can do it and we’ve seen it, we’ve done it, but we are not helping the other person, uh, develop themselves and, and, and, and learn and grow.

[00:35:30] So. At the hardest thing to do if you have a sword, is to not pull it. That’s really the hardest thing to do. And if you are able to, as a leader, you shouldn’t be doing the, the cutting, right? It’s the people. So if you, if you’re able to, you know, develop the people so they can do the cutting, not because you want to take it easy, because, but because you want to, you know, because it’s not your job in the first place to do the cutting and you want to, you know, help, uh, the people grow.

[00:35:59] That’s the one side of the interpretation that I had, and it’s, you can compare it with like a, a soccer game where you know the coach, I mean, he can’t put the, the ball into the goal. I. He’s not on the field, he’s standing aside. And so, in fact, but he, he’ll, he would be like a samurai who cuts without pulling his star because he’d have in, in great times when the team is performing well and the, the, the, the, the players are at the, at the top of their skills and in this flow state, and then they score and they win.

[00:36:28] And that’s a perfect, you know, uh, example of, uh, of cutting without pulling your sword from the, from the coach’s, uh, the manager’s perspective. Now the second interpretation I, I had, so, uh, and it, I think it, you know, there’s, there is not, not just one truth is that as a leader, when you are pulling your sword, it means you don’t have the situation under control anymore.

[00:36:51] It means. This is the final thing, and you are irritated and frustrated and all right, now I’m going to chop off heads. And so it just shows when you, when you are ready to pull your sword, it means you, you have transgressed into a situation when you are not at the top of your game anymore, when you’ve lost control and.

[00:37:11] Things are happening and you have no idea how to kind of cope with it. So the utmost, the ideal of harmony and managing the situation is, you know, without re resorting to, to, to violence and, and, and stuff like that. If an immovable leader who is able to control the situation, who, who is able to, and not even control the situ, who to be in the situation.

[00:37:35] Like an immovable object, stable, serene, calm right there. And that’s this ideal of, uh, of leadership that, uh, you know, and that goes all the way back to the samurai. They call it the OC ocean, which is the unmovable of the immovable mind. Nothing will get you, uh, out of this kind of zen state that, that you’re in.

[00:37:55] And so I think those two, that’s how I interpret it and how I aspire to, you know, when, when walking the path of leadership, it’s to. Not be cutting myself, I mean, not in my own thumbs or fingers, but you know, to help, you know, the people, uh, you know, being able to, to learn how to cut and all these things.

[00:38:14] And the second part is to, uh, to, you know, be cool, be zen, and, uh, and, and, and to not lose myself into these silly things when, you know, frustration and all the things go, go there. It’s a, I mean, I can’t do it all of the time and it then that’s fine, but it’s something to aspire to and to kind of daily. Get that picture.

[00:38:34] So the, the samurai who doesn’t, who cuts without pulling his sword, it’s, it’s a great metaphor to, uh, to keep in your mind.

[00:38:42] Katie: I love that metaphor. And, and it goes back to, you know what I talk about all the time, this like intentional leadership. You know, we don’t always meet our intentions, our actions aren’t always aligned.

[00:38:51] But if we really can pause and be less reactive and really say like, how do I really wanna be in this moment? You’re more likely to be aligned that way. And it’s, it’s so tied to this, this, the paint story I tell from Mr. Yoshino’s experience when he made this huge mistake and instead of yelling at him and blaming him.

[00:39:07] Mr Yoshino’s managers came up and thanked him for making the mistake, and like, that’s a, such a powerful shift. And that was a example of them being the samurai who cuts without pulling the sword. So, uh, I love that. What a powerful learning metaphor about the Samurai. Cutting without a sword, leading through influence, not power.

[00:39:27] A focus on being, not just doing and of being intentional about how you show up as a leader and as a human being. I encourage you to reflect on this episode and note some of your key takeaways. How can you bring the way of the warrior into your practice? Focusing on doing the right thing and the process of getting to the result, not just focusing on the result itself.

[00:39:48] And what do you think? How much of what we know as lean thinking and practice is dependent on Japanese culture? How much of it is due to Toyota’s unique culture, or how much is just grounded in our shared humanity? You could even take out pen and paper and draw a triangle, labeling each of the points with one of those elements and placing an X where your current thinking is.

[00:40:09] This is exactly what I asked the leaders on my Japan leadership experience to do on our first and our last day in Japan together to see how their thinking evolves during their immersive time in Japan. There is no right answer, and I encourage you to continue to reflect on this as your learning evolves.

[00:40:25] Tim and I talked a lot in this episode about the differences between Japanese culture and Western culture, and there’s one additional observation that I wanted to highlight that we didn’t mention that the Japanese people overall I. Better embracing contrast of using and thinking. Whereas we in the West tend to more often separate contrasts using either or thinking.

[00:40:46] There are so many seemingly contradictory contrasts in Japan that one confronts all the time, yet they all seem to exist in harmony. This is the concept of wa, how to live in harmony, the importance of unity and cooperation over individual interests, which can have its downsides too. The contrast and contradictions in Japan are one of the stark standouts for me when I first moved to the country.

[00:41:10] The contrast between ancient and modern century old temples tucked between high-rise buildings and cities having a deep regret for waste. The concept of moai, yet wrapping single bananas and cellophane, or gifs, and layers and layers of wrapping in boxes. The practice of two religions concurrently being practiced by most Japanese Buddhism and Shintoism, because together for the Japanese, they more fully explain life and death.

[00:41:37] This links back to the conversation I had with Wendy Smith in episode 35, where we talked about how we can embrace contradictions and leverage them rather than using either or thinking. And when we do so, we get more effective at getting the outcomes we actually want. As Tim highlights in this episode, it’s not just acquiring knowledge that puts you on the path to success.

[00:41:57] It’s about turning knowledge into wisdom, which comes from actual lived experience. Wisdom is created through learning by doing, through immersing yourself and the process that you take to get to the result. And the same comes from how you can really understand the principles and practices of lean and continuous improvement in cultures of learning.

[00:42:16] To take your knowledge to the next level. I invite you to learn through doing and join me and Tim in Japan on an upcoming leadership cohort of my leadership learning experience. It’s the ultimate immersive transformational leadership development experience you’ll learn by doing and through immersing yourself in conversations of talking to leaders and visiting organizations along with me, Tim, 40 year Toyota leader, ISA y Shino, and many other incredible Japanese business leaders.

[00:42:45] As well as with a cohort of global leaders and change practitioners like yourself, all seeking to create people-centered learning cultures. If you enjoyed this episode, part one of this masterclass on Japanese culture and management, you won’t wanna miss part two of my conversation with Tim will putt where we continue along the path of knowledge, getting to the essence of common Japanese terms used in lean like kada and obeya, and explore the real meaning behind them.

[00:43:09] So be sure to subscribe or follow the chain of learning on your favorite podcast player or YouTube so you never miss an episode. Thanks for being a link in my chain of learning today. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day.