Adopt the Mentor Mindset: How to Motivate, Guide, and Develop the Next Generation with David Yeager

David: [00:00:00] What I found is that rather than like lower demand as a way of reducing stress, instead increase flexibility and resources so that way they have a positive source of stress. It’s what we call a challenge type stress, where you’re approaching these meaningful, ambitious goals.

Katie: Welcome the Chain of Learning, where the links of leadership and learning unite.

This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people-centered learning culture, get results, and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy. I’m your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson. Have you ever struggled to give feedback or guidance to someone younger or tried to get them on board with the rule only to feel like they shut down, pushed back, or tuned you out?

I know I have. Both as a parent of a pre-teen and teenager, and I hear it all the time in my work with managers, leaders, and coaches, we’ve all heard the stereotypes. Young people don’t care. They’re entitled. They can’t take feedback. [00:01:00] Whether you’re a parent, a coach, or a manager, you’ve probably asked yourself, how do I guide without coming across as critical or controlling?

Why does it feel like I’m always nagging? Why won’t they follow the rules or expectations? And how do I help them take ownership? At the heart of these questions is something bigger? How do we shift from compliance to engagement, and how do we empower people, especially the younger generation, to grow, learn, and step into their full potential?

That’s why I was so eager to talk with Dr. David Yeager, professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, an author of the new book 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation—And Making Your Own Life Easier. Making your own life easier. David is a leading expert on mindset, motivation, and adolescent development.

His groundbreaking studies with colleagues like Carol Dweck, my guest back on episode three of this podcast, Angela Duckworth and Greg Walton, has [00:02:00] shaped how we understand feedback, motivation, engagement, stress, and human potential. His insights are influencing not only schools, but also organizations like Google, Microsoft, Disney, McDonald’s, and even the White House.

I read David’s book cover to cover and have already started applying some of his insights in how I approach motivating my own kids. I highly recommend it for anyone looking for practical ways to overcome the challenges we face as parents, leaders, and coaches, and how to influence, motivate, and truly support others.

We started our conversation with this question, how did the belief that younger people are hard to influence or motivate shape David’s research and the writing of 10 to 25. Let’s dive in,

David: dive at a high level. It’s just, it feels weird to me that we kind of give up on an entire generation or even an entire developmental stage.

You know, when you have a, a baby as a parent, no one comes up to you and is like, oh, that’s the worst. Like, I’m so sorry. They’re like very excited. You’ve like, uh, you know, goo goo [00:03:00] gaga. Like, it’s, let’s go. That’s, it’s cute. I’m gonna squeeze it. But like, if you have a teenager, people are like, what’s wrong with you?

You know? Or like, I’m, I pity you. Or if you choose to work with teenagers, like people pat you on the back or they say, bless your heart. You know? And that just, it feels weird to me that we. Solve problems for other age groups and in other generations, but we don’t try to solve them for the current generation of young people.

We’d just dismiss them. I wanted to get to the bottom of that, like first of like, what are, what are young people really wanting and what are we not getting to them? And then, then it’s an interesting question of like, why do we as adults get it so wrong? What do we need to change to start getting it right?

And that led to a whole series of investigations and interviews and, and insights that I write about in the book.

Katie: Yeah. Well, I’m really looking forward to diving in here today because not only as a parent of a pre-teen and a teenager, like this book really resonated with me and some problems and [00:04:00] relational challenges I’m having right now.

So that was super helpful. But also like the work we do and how to like, engage and motivate not just young people, but like our entire workforce in, in problem solving. And how do we, how do we. Show up to be most helpful for what people need to be able to move forward. Uh, I love the framing of your book about the mentor’s dilemma, so if we could like start there and just describe what the mentor’s dilemma is, and then we can go into some of your research about how to overcome it.

David: Yeah, the mentor’s dilemma, it was coined initially by a mentor of mine at at Stanford in graduate school named Jeff Cohen, and it very simply defines the challenge. Like it makes sense if, if, if I’m an expert and they’re a novice and I need to share my expertise with them, that’s gonna involve some kind of critical feedback at some point.

But the problem is that that debilitates and crushes and demotivates people because they don’t like having their flaws pointed out. Certainly not by someone with power over them. And so you have, uh, the a choice. It’s a real dilemma. Do I lie to someone and withhold my honest feedback [00:05:00] or am I. Honest and forthright, but risk pushing them away, demotivating them, and then frustrating myself and my own goals because now I don’t have this like compliant, willing partner on, on the work.

So, um, this comes up a lot and my, in the book I read about my best friend who’s in. Head of ENT surgery at a large medical school and how he would give his residents critical feedback at the end of his shift. And for some of them it was like in one ear out the other, like nobody’s paying attention and you can’t not give feedback.

’cause then they’re gonna be doctors that don’t, can’t save lives. But if you’re viewed as a bad leader, you’re not training people, that’s, you’re not fulfilling your mission as a a leader as well. But it’s come up in other settings too. So law partners come up to me all the time and they’re like. I’m very senior partner.

I’ve filed Supreme Court cases and briefs and things like that, and I’ve got some 24 year olds, fresh outta Georgetown Law School is a total hotshot, and they submit their brief and [00:06:00] it’s no good. So I cover it in comments and tell them how to fix it. And then they get offended and they’re like, does this mean I’m never gonna make partner?

And the the partner’s like, that’s ridiculous that I bill it a thousand dollars an hour. Like it cost me $3,000 to give you this feedback, or at least cost. We billed it to the client. And so if I didn’t. Think your work was valuable, I wouldn’t have done that. So there’s just so many examples of this disconnect.

I even write about professional sports, so that’s a workplace as well. So 19 year olds that are drafted, they’re good at some things, but not good at others. And then a coach needs to like fix their shop. Or their approach to the game, do they trust the person who’s telling them to change or do they say, it’s too risky ’cause I’m gonna get worse if I mess up my shot and I don’t, I don’t trust you, I’m not gonna change.

So in all these settings, you know, it’s really frustrating for the adult, the mentor, the leader because we feel like we’re good at our jobs and we’re not able to transmit that expertise, not able to elevate our teens. And it’s frustrating for the young person who feels talked down to. And so [00:07:00] I, I wanted to try to look at the research on how to resolve this dilemma.

Katie: It’s interesting. I mean, I look back on all my experiences as well. It’s like the times we feel frustrated is ’cause your intention is to be helpful, but the other person’s not experiencing it that way. You’ve really come up with some interesting ways to come a around this mentor’s dilemma and framing some other polarities that we might come into feeling like things have to be either or.

So I’d love to hear sort of how you’ve through your research, how you came up with this resolution and some alternatives for us to be thinking about what mentorship really can be,

David: rather than get stuck in this worldview of, you know, young people are overly sensitive, they’re wimps, they are entitled, et cetera, and that’s why they can’t take feedback to instead think, well what, what are they concerned about from their perspective?

And often what they’re concerned about is. Their reputations, their, whether they’re being taken seriously, whether really they’ve earned a valuable social reputation, like are you being [00:08:00] respected by people or not? There’s all kinds of developmental reasons I write about for that. But in general, the short version is that.

As you go through Pubal maturation and, and we, the book call 10 to 25 because 10 is roughly the onset of gonadal maturation, the gonadal access of puberty, and 25 is roughly the age of which you take on an adult-like role. In our culture, it’s a pretty big window where biologically you’re ready to be an adult, but socio culturally you’re not afforded the rights and responsibilities of adulthood.

And so that creates a predicament where you kind of want the experience of being respected and taken seriously, but you’re not by people in power. What we tried to do is say like, once you view it that way, then a lot of the kids these days behavior that frustrates us and makes us feel like you can’t do anything.

It is actually the result of this predicament that, that there’s a disparity between the amount of status and respect young people want and what they’re afforded, which then suggests, well, maybe I need, as a [00:09:00] leader, need to get curious about. How they’re experiencing things and how they might experience it differently, specifically with respect to the status and respect, implications of how I’m talking to them, what I’m asking them to do, how I’m treating them, et cetera.

Katie: You know, I, I even think this can translate to adults as well. I mean, I know it’s, it really. Really makes sense from the developmental stage, from, from young adults and teens. But like, we all want to be respected and to be heard and to feel like we have agency as well. So I think even when we’re working with adults, a lot of the, the, the things we’re gonna talk about here can really apply as well as strategies for coaching and mentoring, not just people up to the age of 25, but beyond too.

David: Yeah, 10 to 25 is like a lens that helps us understand a phenomenon. And that phenomenon is that anytime our status. Respect is in question. Like we can’t take it for granted. Then we’re gonna be really sensitive to clues about how we’re doing socially. And you know, adolescents in an early adulthood is, is [00:10:00] a period in general where there’s uncertainty about your future and your status and your place.

But there are kinds of things that can happen throughout life that make you. Wonder about things like changing jobs or changing careers or starting a new role or having a new boss. All kinds of things that just don’t allow you to take your status for granted. And in those moments, you need to be thinking about the kinds of things that I write about in the book and, and, and specifically around language and framing and communication, uh, which is a lot of the research that we’ve done.

Katie: One of the things that I really thought was powerful was the difference between the mentor mindset and then the contrast with what feels like two polarities. We have to choose whether or not we’re the enforcer or the protector, and it’s like, I’m either gonna challenge or I’m gonna support, and I like, I always like to think about, it’s like a, it’s finding that right balance, like enough challenge with enough support.

And you really validated that with your research as well, that it’s not, it doesn’t need to be either or. You actually can do it as, and. Like have challenge and support together. So I’d love to hear sort of what the [00:11:00] mentor mindset is and then these contrasts of other mindsets and how it’s sort of like, I, I guess, a false dichotomy that, that we tend to have as people in positions of power or influence.

David: Yeah. So if you think about the mentor’s dilemma as this forced choice between unfiltered criticism that breaks someone’s spirit, but tells them the the necessary truth. On the one hand and the withholding of honest feedback, uh, over coddling, caring, friendly, supportive, um, pushover on the other extreme, then you’re like, well, neither is really ideal, but I gotta choose.

And so people just feel kind of aligned with one or the other. In, in that world in which these are two ends of one continuum, what I wanna argue is that they don’t have to be. Polls on a single continuum because there’s actually two things going on. One is how. Demanding, rigorous, et cetera. You are. So how high are your [00:12:00] standards?

And the other thing going on, which can be orthogonal, is how supportive you are of someone from meeting high standards. And I’m not the first person to say this. People have had different versions of it, but I think it, it’s useful in this context and, and I’ll, I’ll explain it in a minute what I think I added.

But, uh, the basic idea is that there’s two bad solutions to the mentor’s dilemma. Have names and, and the overly demanding, highly critical. What you could characterize as yell, tell, blame and shame approach is what I call the enforcer mindset. And this is just the belief that. I have to enforce extremely high standards.

Um, and it comes from a belief about young people usually that they are shortsighted, selfish, incorrigible, trying to get out of work, trying to take the easiest way possible. They’ll exploit every advantage at every turn, kind of that they, that they really lack integrity and discipline and self-control.

And so if that’s your worldview, then if you want to be a high performing team, then you need to control [00:13:00] young people with extremely strong incentives or threats of punishment. Coercion or excessive monitoring, like nanny cams, kind of stuff like that. So that’s the enforcer mindset, and it has a logic to it and it, I get where that logic comes from.

But the problem is it comes across as very disrespectful for young people. People feel falsely accused. They feel unsupported. They feel shamed and blamed. And so it’s an affront, it’s a status and respect, which means that for the lion’s share of young people, it’s gonna push them away. The other alternative is the, the friendly caring one that’s I would characterize as low standards, high support, and I call that the protector mindset.

And again, I, it, it comes from a reasonable place. I understand what people are thinking. They’re often thinking something like, young people are fragile, they’re broken, they’re distressed. They’ve gone through COVID, they’ve had an anxiety epidemic. Cell phones turn their brains to mush. I can’t expect anything of these people like they’re.

And in fact, because I can’t expect anything of them then if I had high [00:14:00] standards. That’s just cruel, right? That’s like sending someone to jail for not being able to dunk a basketball when they’re four foot tall. It’s like, well that’s, you can’t do that ’cause they don’t deserve it. So you can’t punish people for that.

So that’s kind of the. Protector mindset is that people can’t do very much. Therefore, all I’m gonna do is protect you from distress. ’cause I’m worried that you’re gonna fall apart, like wet tissue paper. If I, you know, I’m too rough with you. That one’s disrespectful too, but in like a slightly different way, it’s disrespectful because.

Young people know what we’re doing. They, they know that we have low standards for them, that we look down on them. So it’s an indirect insult, but also it makes them terrified for their future. They’re like, I’m not prepared for this, this changing world, this, this complex future that’s gonna demand a lot of me, because at, at every turn, people have protected me from real consequences or, or real standards of work.

And so what I wanna argue is that. Even though I [00:15:00] understand why people end up in one of those two, there’s a third way. And the third way is to have the very high standards and the very high support together. And that’s what I call the mentor mindset, which is the solution, in my opinion, to the mentor’s dilemma,

Katie: spot on.

And to me that just like can, when I read that in your book, I was like, you gave words to what I’ve been talking about to adults, coaching adults for, for years. And it’s, it’s how do we overcome how overcome that And that’s like that sweet spot of the learning zone, man. Like where do we find enough challenge to move into something that we don’t know how to do or feel uncomfortable with yet enough support that we’re not drowning and just expected to do it and like one without the other actually leads to, you know, as you just well described, you know, not good outcomes either people give up ’cause they’re, it’s like too stressful or they’re not growing and maybe just.

Become singing kumbaya, but that doesn’t really help anyone become something better.

David: I did say I’m not the first person to have a two by two. You know, Kim Scott has radical candor and then, but really this goes back to the [00:16:00] 1930s with Kurt Lewin. Many different people have described these quadrants as styles, and I think that’s fine, but when you hear them described as styles, like what I call the enforcer, has been called the authoritarian.

It’s leadership style for, for example, as soon as you hear ’em call style, then I’m like, oh, where do people learn a style? Then the first thing people think of is your childhood. Like what, how did your parents parent you or your first job? It’s almo, they almost have like a mental model of imprinting. Like they, they think of your leadership style as like your accent.

Your accent will reveal if you grew up in Georgia versus New Jersey, you know, versus California. And so it’s an early experience that you carry with you unwittingly, and I don’t really think of it that way. I, the, the way I think of these leadership styles is. Mindsets And, and the reason that that’s important to me, it’s not just ’cause I work with Carol Dweck and we call everything a mindset, but it’s because I really do think these styles are the logical [00:17:00] consequences that fall out of beliefs.

People have. A mindset is just your belief about the world and yourself. And now it works. And if, if you fundamentally have this pejorative belief about young people, that they’re neurobiologically incompetent and shortsighted and not trustworthy. Enforcer makes a lot of sense. ’cause you think society’s going to hell in a hand basket and unless I maintain some rigor and discipline in this otherwise crazy, undisciplined world.

But if you have a different belief like that, young people are ready to learn. They’re highly motivated when things are presented in the right way, and that you can switch on motivation in powerful ways with the right framing. Then all of a sudden the mentor mindset stuff, which we can describe as practices starts making sense.

But what I found is that you, if you show up to a leadership seminar, you’re like, here’s a good style and here’s the bad style. The good style is these 19 points, and the bad style is these 19 points. So do less of the bad and more of the good. That’s like giving you a long list of like healthy foods you’re supposed to [00:18:00] buy at Trader Joe’s and so that you don’t have diabetes in 30 years.

It’s like, why am I gonna prioritize that? And that’s a million things I gotta do. And there’s a million things I already had to do. So, but, but if you, if you deal with beliefs first, then all of a sudden the mentor rights of practices make more sense and the enforcer and protector ones make less sense.

Katie: It, it, it is really rare. How did the worldview come from a different angle and then you could align your behaviors more easily to that? ’cause it’s coming from a different lens of how you’re perceiving even the situation.

David: N not, not only that, but I, as I’ve done a lot of, you know, talks on the book over the last year, I.

I keep hearing about these conflicts between protectors and enforcers. So protectors, look at enforcers. They’re like, you’re a monster. Like you yell at everybody. You blame everybody. You’re too hard on them. It’s harsh. You make everybody cry. You’re causing mental health problems and, and I’m gonna be caring and, and forgiving and flexible.

In response to all the terrible things you’re doing. And then enforcers look at [00:19:00] protectors and they’re like, you’re a pushover. Like what a wimp. You know, you don’t have any standards, you don’t expect anything. How is anyone supposed to become an adult if you don’t, uh, take them seriously. And so there’s, there’s antagonism between the two styles when they’re just styles.

’cause it’s almost like an introvert and an extrovert not getting along. Right. That’s how it’s framed in the literature. And that doesn’t feel right to me. ’cause another way to think of it is. If they both kind of have the wrong belief about the way young people are. But if they, we correct that belief, we’re like, no, actually young people are incredible learners.

And by the way, lemme just say it is the case that young people are capable of incredible things. Like it’s not just a myth. Like if you like the, if you give the Ravens progressive matrices, this is the Culture Free IQ test. It’s like the best measure according to Psychometricians. For fluid intelligence, it peaks at eight to 22.

18 to 22. Like the smartest you’ll ever be actually for raw horsepower is 18 to 22. Like what adult thinks that ev. Most people [00:20:00] look back on what they did in that age range. They’re like, I was such an idiot. I all this dumb stuff. Right? So it is true that young people have amazing intellectual horsepower in that, in that age range, and they’re deeply adaptive social learners, like they figure out culture way more quickly than adults do.

So if you start with that belief, then all of a sudden if you find yourself inclined to more of an enforcer, you’re like, oh, I’ve got the standards. How do I add the support? Now I wanna talk to the protector. The protector is a good at support. That’s something I wanna learn. The protector is like, all right, I’ve got the support, I need the standards.

That’s a good reason to talk to the enforcer, like figure out what they’re doing so they can both move more into the mentor box, I’ve found. And I think it changes a lot of this dynamic, whether it’s one parent hates the other parent ’cause they’re too a bunch of enforcer protector. Or one teacher, or one boss thinks the other boss is a pushover or whatever it is.

We, we can start creating alliances rather than antagonisms.

Katie: You had a really great example from your [00:21:00] own experience in the book about how you as a, you know, mentor, a professor, helped show up in this mentor mindset way of balancing both rigor or high expectations, but also that support. That was a really good example.

Um, if you could share that or other ones that you like that demonstrate how you can have this more mentor mindset in your approach to dealing with. Challenges in people in either in the workplace or uh, at home.

David: First of all, I had a, a pretty good reason to tell a story in which I look really good, and it’s because I wanted people to read my book and think I know what I’m talking about.

Uh, so the book has plenty of examples where I look like a great parent and boss, uh, but they’d ask my other kids and they’ll be like, oh, lemme tell you a different story. Um, but, but there was something I’m, I am proud of, which is I had a student who came to me with a crisis. Uh, she was an advanced undergraduate who was in the honors program.

At my university, super talented, could have gone anywhere. Um, and her mom died, [00:22:00] um, two thirds of the way through the course. And so she emailed me and said, look, I, I’m not gonna be able to complete the assignments, uh, for the next few weeks at least. Um, my mom died. I have to go home. I gotta deal with the funeral.

I have to sell her stuff. I have to, like, put things in storage. It’s like, it’s like I’m gonna be totally distracted. And she was my best friend. So I’m grieving. So, um, I just hope that this doesn’t hurt my grade. It was interesting be, and she even like pleaded. She was like, please believe me. And I was like, that’s weird.

And then I thought about it. I’m like, I bet all my colleagues think students lie about this stuff. And so she felt like she had to say, please believe me. ’cause she was used to professors accusing students of lying about crises. The the reality is like, my life is no different. If an additional student gets an A or gets a C, like I, I care about.

Inspiring the next generation and, and portraying my field in a way that helps change people. But like, no one will, I have tenure, no one will ever talk to me about the grades my [00:23:00] students get. And, and they’d be weird if they did, to be honest. So like I get, I get why students care a lot, uh, that professors actually pay attention to them.

’cause we actually don’t have to, which is the brutal truth. But then I thought gi given that like my goal isn’t to like. Make sure that she jumps through every hoop to get an A. My goal really is to instill knowledge and expertise in the next generation. Then I kind of had a choice, right? I could have said, you know, sounds like you’re going through a lot.

You can withdraw from the class and just complete it later. And then that’s fair. Uh, to other students, which is kind of an enforcer little, there’s a little bit of protector in there too. It’s like kind of run away from, you know, the challenge. I, I could have also just said, rules are rules. I, I, I can’t be unfair to the other students.

If I let you off the hook, then now I have to make accommodations for them. That’s too complex and I’m not gonna change the meaning of your grade versus their grade just to accommodate you. So I’m sorry. You gotta do what you can. And that’s, [00:24:00] A lot of professors say that and then a lot of professors are like, don’t worry about it.

We’ll just stop the course here. You’ll get an A based on the work you’ve done so far. I actually showed that dilemma. A talk I gave on campus and a bunch of psychologists were there, and almost all of them were the latter. They were like, let’s give this student an A and ask him for not do anything. And I thought that was surprising.

So then I thought about it and I was like, you know what I care most is that. People have a life changing experience in my class, and then they do a final project that’s meaningful to them. And then once they’ve done a good final project, they can talk about it in their interviews for a job. Like they go interview at McKinsey, then they’re like, here’s this amazing project I did.

And, and, and, yeah, it was an A, but like look how good it is. And they have a video of it. And because my final project is a pitch to a venture capitalist. Or some partner, you have eight minutes to convince them to do a behavioral science experiment or to support a new product that has behavioral science roots.

And I was like, that’s a good project and I kind of feel like students would benefit [00:25:00] from it. So what I offered a student was, I was like, don’t do any busy work. Like kind of, you don’t need to prove to me you did the readings. I, and I don’t really care, to be honest, because the readings are for you, like for your benefit.

And I want you to read enough that you can do well in the class. But. If you read every page, it doesn’t really matter to me one way or the other, and you’re 22, and you can be discerning in what you wanna read and not read like you’re an adult. And I was like, what I do care about is you do an amazing, world changing final project that makes you look great and that you’re proud.

That you’re proud you did it. And that when you tell people you went to UT Austin and tell ’em about the project, they’re like, wow, I wish I could have been in that class. Like that’s what I care about. And so I was like, just focus on your project. And then, and I emailed her group members. I was like, please be flexible scheduling.

If there’s any issues, let me know. We can meet directly with her instead. If you don’t want to be a part of the group, but you know, help her get across the finish line. And she did four years ago, did an amazing project on using AI chatbots to [00:26:00] train teachers to be more empathic in their discipline for students of color.

This is before public release of chat, GPT, which is still a great idea and has not been done in the industry. And then she got an A, it was an amazing project, and then she talked about it in her interview, uh, from MasterCard, where she then got picked for this like global program where she traveled around the world like every few months, went to another exotic country, directly trained and mentored by senior leadership.

And like if she had an incomplete, then she wouldn’t have graduated and she wouldn’t have been eligible for those jobs. And on top of that. If she didn’t have a good final project, she would’ve had less to talk about in her interview process. And anyway, I followed up with her a year later and I was like, did I do the right thing?

And she was like, every other professor told me to drop, or just, they were gonna give me easy as. And I was like that, even though it felt convenient. She’s like, that’s not why my mom moved from Ethiopia to America to send me to college so that someone could be like, take an easy yay. Like my [00:27:00] mom sacrificed and then later died of cancer.

But she sacrificed to get me here. She wanted to invest in my education, and she was like, you’re the only person that took me seriously at that moment. And, and sometimes doing hard things collectively with others provides you a sense of meaning, even when you’re experiencing grief. So it wasn’t just the right thing in terms of her career, it was also the right thing in terms of her mental health.

But it wasn’t about reducing stress. It was about embracing stress as a natural consequence of doing things that matter to you.

Katie: Yeah. And what I hear in that too is you still held a high standard that was gonna be the most helpful and, but you provided support at the same time. Like, don’t do the, the busy work here.

How can I help you make sure this is happening? So she felt supported and challenged in a way that was like, as you said, really meaningful and helped her ultimately get to the bigger goal that she had for herself.

David: Yeah, it, it made me realize there’s a distinction that I don’t think people talk about enough between.

Intellectual rigor and logistical rigor.

Katie: Yeah,

David: and people often mistake [00:28:00] like inflexibility on deadlines for what rigor is, but really rigor is like, do you do amazing work? Or if you’re a student, like have you deeply mastered the content? Ideally, you know that content for the rest of your life, like it’d be a waste of time for you to pay for a course on.

Python and then forget it immediately after you finish the course. That’d be a dumb use of money. So the real goal is that you retain the information in the future and build on it, right? And that’s what intellectually rigorous courses do. But nobody cares if you did it one week versus the next because you’re talking about knowledge you’re gonna use for 20 years, 40 years.

So like that. Difference of a few days is minuscule. So I don’t care at all. Like I, I have deadlines mainly ’cause I know students are tempted to procrastinate. But like if you’re a thousand percent confident on top of it, student, I don’t care how you do your work or when, just [00:29:00] do it. Make it amazing. And then I’ll meet with you and talk with you until it’s great.

And that’s fine.

Katie: I love that. Being flexible on the process to get to the, the shared outcome.

David: Yeah. But like really demanding on what the quality of the final product is.

Katie: No. Is that, that’s a really great tip for people about how do you, how can you still be flexible but, and help people grow and able to get to that, that final goal?

David: Right. ’cause the worry is that if I’m lenient on deadlines or logistics or process, then they will exploit that in me and take advantage of it, and then do bad work. I don’t really think this is the case. I, I think what often happens is you’re like super clear about a rigorous standard and then you’re like, here are all the things we’re gonna do to help you meet there.

And I’ll do whatever it takes so that you meet that standard. But it’s your work. You’re gonna win the second half to do it, but I’m a resource for you. And that’s what I think. When I followed all these mentor mindset leaders, that’s what they were doing left and right is they never lowered the standard, especially in the workplace.

They wanted to be the 99th percentile and get all the [00:30:00] bonuses. Absolutely. They were okay with any process to get there. They weren’t rigid in the process. They were rigid in the level of rigor they were trying to meet on their team.

Katie: Yeah. And how to, how to engage their people, not just through compliance, but true engagement in doing, in doing the work to get there.

David: Yeah. And think about how unhappy it makes us to have. Unrealistic standards and rigid inflexible processes, you’re like that’s, that is the major source of stress in school and in the workplace. ’cause it feels like you can never meet a standard. You either have to compromise your standard and do crap work, but on time or just lose your mind in order to meet all the demands.

And so what I found is that rather than like lower demand as a way of reducing stress instead increase flexibility and resources. So that way they have a positive source of stress. It’s what we call a challenge type stress, where you’re approaching these meaningful, uh, ambitious goals.

Katie: When I was reading your book in the beginning, I was thinking how much these mindsets were [00:31:00] really aligned with, uh, theory X and theory Y about, you know, management mindsets as well.

And, and I even had texted, you know, uh, a colleague of mine about this and then literally just like. 20 pages later, you, you actually explored that and as it related to one of the most powerful case studies in the book about how a manager was shifting from, uh, Stef ok. Komodo was shifting from, you know, from existing in this more Theory X, which is this command and control, uh, authoritarian business culture to trying to.

Be more mentor mindset, and I’d love to hear from your perspective how this related in the workforce and also this mindset within like what management and leadership means as well.

David: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll tell you the story and then I’ll, I’ll tell you briefly how we’ve been training managers in service and retail.

We have, we have a new project in like 40 McDonald’s stores in West Virginia. That’s really exciting.

Katie: Yeah. I’m excited to hear

David: more. So, so Stef Okamoto is now at ServiceNow. She’s recruited away ’cause she’s awesome at her job. Uh, and, but for a long [00:32:00] time she was at Microsoft for like over 20 years. I think she started in like the technical manuals and publishing.

If you’re, if you’re a developer and you understand how Windows works, he’s just like this. They, their, her team would produce the manuals and then later she just got interested in being the best manager. And so then HR noticed and then brought her over a manager success. But, but most of her career was a, a very much what McClelland has called Theory X culture at Microsoft.

And that’s this. Enforce their mindset culture. It’s says shame and blame. It’s if you screw up in a meeting, everyone yells at you. They, I ran for several people who say they literally saw someone flip a table over in anger because someone made a dumb mistake in a meeting. And then it’s the kind of thing where you like never see the person who presented again.

It’s like they disappear. A lot of people, I have written about this, vanity Fair had a big uh, piece, I don’t know, 10, 20 years ago about Microsoft’s culture under Balmer. Before Satya Nadella. But what [00:33:00] happened is then young talent went to Google and Apple because they’re like, I don’t have to deal with it here and Google.

I get to drink odd Walla Juice and ride a scooter and eat m and ms all day. And so it was just different kind of culture within a decade of that kind of enforcer mindset culture of Microsoft, a single product at Apple, the iPhone made more money than the entire company at Microsoft. Now Steph initially.

Reacted negatively to this because she cared for her employees. And so when she was first promoted as a manager, it was, she was on a team. That team got brought in-house, and so she became the manager of people who were used to be her peers and not wanting to be in this enforcer culture. She like withheld some feedback from people, you know, like wasn’t.

As forthcoming as she could have been, in part because there’s a little awkwardness of now I’m in charge of you. In part partially she knew how critical everyone else was in the company and she didn’t want to be contributing to that enforcer culture. But then the problem was that they were doing stack ranking at the time, and [00:34:00] so her, some of her friends and employees were seriously damaged in terms of their promotional velocity and their incentive, uh, bonuses and stuff, uh, because they didn’t get the feedback they needed in time.

So she kinda learned a lesson to basically always take someone seriously enough to be honest with them, to tell them how they can improve, but then walk the journey with them so you’re not just flipping tables and yelling and telling you you’re collaborating. And that management approach is a perfect mentor mindset, uh, approach that she has then taken, uh, through Microsoft.

Uh, she helped develop model coach care, which is under Kathleen Hogan, became an award-winning HR model. They’ve, uh, they’re named number one employer all the time for different, uh, outlets. Uh, and now she owns manager success at, at ServiceNow. And so that, those kinds of stories really inspired me to say, let’s now take these ideas from high tech industry where everyone is highly educated, high performing, super motivated, well compensated.[00:35:00]

Can we take that to other industries that have other challenges? And so we’ve been looking a lot as service in retail. In part because the largest group of employees in America are frontline workers in service and retail, right? Walmart has 1.3 million employees in America. Um, and then you’ve got, uh, it’s, it’s also the largest collection of non-college educated, uh, employees.

So as middle class jobs are disappearing, AI is taking entry level jobs. Uh, the American dream is like a fiction to a lot of people. Wouldn’t it be great? If these service and retail jobs were actually roots to a respect worthy, high status career, rather than just people looking down on you and treating like you don’t matter.

Uh, and so we’ve been working with, with frontline managers at McDonald’s to basically change how they communicate. To not communicate with an enforcer mindset or protector mindset, but instead use the mentor mindset. Uh, [00:36:00] and, and it, it’s probably been the most interesting study I’ve done in like a decade.

Like, it sounds so mundane. Like for example, if you’re a frontline man, let’s say you’re like 19 years old and, but you’re manager at McDonald’s and your best employee, super duper smells, what do you say to them? It’s a hard question because it, if you’re like, dude, you stink, could be offensive and that person could quit and now you’ve lost your most reliable person.

If you say nothing, then all the other employees are mad at you ’cause they have to work with a smiley colleague. Or customers are complaining. It’s like, what’s the right way to have that conversation? Other, and there’s a lot of other stuff, like if you wear the wrong non-slip shoes, uh, or, or fail to wear non-slip shoes, then now there’s a risk that.

When everyone’s running around making the soda machine, someone’s gonna spell, you’re gonna slip, you’re gonna fall in fryer. Now you got a million dollar lawsuit on your hands. And on top of that, if the inspector shows up, you’re danger as a restaurant. And that has all kinds of implications. So the default way that the manager would talk to an employee is enforce their mindset that they would be like, don’t you know you need to wear the [00:37:00] correct shoes.

It’s super important. If you don’t, there’s all these consequences. It’s like, it’s what I call grown splaining in the book, which is like I, with my like smart experience brand. Explain it to your like, dumb, inexperienced brain. We did all this focus group piloting stuff. I this great example where a manager, uh, was, needed to enforce the policy of wearing blue gloves.

And so some employee was wearing white gloves, not blue gloves. And the manager comes up, they’re like, don’t you know you need to wear the blue gloves. Super important. Corporate said you have to wear the blue gloves. Uh, it’s important for safety reasons, important ’cause of the inspector. You know, and we’ve already told you three times and it’s on the wall.

It’s on a poster right there. So the fact that you’re not listening and not doing it when it’s on the wall is actually a bigger concern. ’cause it means you’re not paying attention to the rules and you’re not really respecting what I’m saying as your manager. And so I really need you to wear the gloves.

Okay. And then the employee, the frontline employee looked at the manager in the eyes and said, you have not refilled the blue gloves. We don’t have any blue gloves. Yeah. [00:38:00] It’s like they gave him the whole lecture. It was pointless. It’s because the manager didn’t refill the gloves. Hmm. And it was like, that’s a microcosm of what happens all the time is people show up with some lecture about how important thing, it’s like telling a kid to eat your vegetables and that’s how you talk to your employee.

And you never stop and say, can you explain why you’re not wearing the gloves? And then wait for an answer. And so we created new tools where, where one of the first things we do is we’re like any rules violation or any issue, ask them what’s going on. Then wait for their explanation. And almost always, there’s a reason that made sense from their perspective.

And so the first thing you do at Mentor, and this is chapter six in my book on Mentor Mindset, is ask questions far more than you tell. But like if you do that, then you learn stuff, then it comes across as respectful because the presumption is someone wanted to follow the rule, but something got in the way.

So now I’ve respected you, I’ve, I’ve taken you seriously, like you’re a professional. And, and I’ll just end, like my favorite [00:39:00] example of this, uh, of how we kind of taught people how to do it differently is something that happens a lot, which is that, uh, people working in restaurants are not allowed to wear jewelry on their wrists, uh, or anywhere where it could get caught in the fryer.

So you can’t wear like a watch. There’s like approved and unapproved jewelry, but you can’t have like a Bengal, you know, or a friendship bracelet or whatever. Safety hazard, and it could get in the food. So the default is to go gro and splain it. If so, employee walks in, they’ve got the bracelet and like, don’t, you know, it’s important.

You could get caught in the fryer, it could fall in the food, yada, yada, yada. So, uh. We train the managers to ask a question first. And so do you know the number one reason why people wear like impermissible jewelry when they’re manufacturing food at McDonald’s?

Katie: I don’t,

David: uh, it’s not ’cause they’re like, stick it to the man.

It’s, it’s usually they have some like deep personal. Significance.

Katie: So, oh, something they value.

David: So it’s like it’s, uh, their best friend was killed in a drive-by and they, they put on a bracelet at [00:40:00] the funeral and said, I’ll never take this off to honor the memory of my best friend. Oh. Or they’re like a high schooler that fell in love and both parties have a bracelet on, and they made a vow that the undying symbol of their love is they’ll never take the bracelet off.

So it’s like a full on Romeo and Juliet situation where the manager. Is like, you gotta take it off. And the young person’s like, oh, okay. Hold on. I have to choose between demonstrating undying devotion and love to the person that I care most about in the world, or listening to my McDonald’s manager. Like, they take the hemlock every time.

Like there’s, there’s no way they’re gonna be like, you’re right boss. I’m gonna cut off this French. And so, uh, the, the, the grown explaining way doesn’t work because what people care about most is their meaning and significance in their lives. And you’re asking ’em to forfeit that, just to comply with the rule of some manager at an hourly wage job.

So it turns out, you can just say. I noticed you’re wearing that even though we [00:41:00] have a policy, you’re not allowed to. It must really be meaningful to you. Can you explain to me why it’s meaningful and then they’re like, the drive by or the, you know, the loved one or whatever, and then like, do you think you can honor their love and memory by still wearing it but wearing it on your ankle?

And they’re like, sure. And then they do, and then they don’t quit. It’s not an issue. It, you know. So it’s like, this is what I’m talking about is like, and by the way, do you know the turnover rate at McDonald’s?

Katie: Uh, you told me this. I’ll let you say it. It’s

David: 150%.

Katie: Yeah.

David: So for every a hundred jobs, McDonald’s has to hire 150 people per year for those jobs.

Right. So, and it cost McDonald’s nationally $4 billion per year just on turnover. And I’m not saying the turnover rate could be zero, but like it could be a hundred percent, you know, and that saves billions of dollars, right? What are we doing? And so like just small changes in language and communication can make a big difference and that’s kind of where we’re [00:42:00] taking this work.

Next is, is into employers, uh, in the workplace

Katie: and really helping support them to have those tools. I, I love that you’re using AI ’cause it’s can be more flexible in real time. Like, I’m having this situation,

David: right, and I didn’t explain this yet, but basically once we figured out what you should say instead, we then.

Elicited a bunch of real scenarios, and we had real managers like say what, what their issues are, what their conflicts are, what conversations they’re having. And then Carol Dweck, who wrote Growth Mindset, she and I personally edited those answers to make super answers. And then we fine tuned an AI model that’s like a Yeager in your pocket.

And so these managers can, before you go yell at somebody, ask Iger in your pocket, uh, what you should say. And they, it’s, it seems to be working really well so far. And as far as we can tell.

Katie: That’s awesome. And not only like improving from the business outcome, which is like decreased costs and keep, you know, keeping turnover lower, but you’re also creating, like helping the world, like creating a space where people feel engaged and like hopefully that helps have a virtuous [00:43:00] cycle where they have employment and they feel respected and other, uh, things so that they’re able to be contributing members of society too.

David: Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s a strong business case and cost savings, but also in. Efficiency you go through. If everyone’s working together as a team, the drive through line, it’s faster. Yeah, I’m fine with that happening. It’s not my goal in life. Uh, what I really wanna do is take jobs that are often portrayed to young people as dead end jobs.

I mean, think about it, like, how do most people think about working at McDonald’s? Right. Well, for a lot of kids, I mean, you know, if your family works there, you think you have direct experience. But if, if you don’t have direct experience. Working at McDonald’s is a threat. Your high school teacher tells you when you don’t turn in your math homework, they’re like, you don’t turn in this worksheet.

You’re gonna end up working at McDonald’s. Right? Or your friends say that now you are working at McDonald’s and you’re not even good at it ’cause your manager’s yelling at you. It doesn’t have to be that. That kind of like dehumanizing experience. And we found [00:44:00] that most managers. Would love for it to be a great experience for people.

So there’s a misalignment between the real experience of working service and retail and what, what managers want and what people need. So if you can solve this, think about like if we could make these frontline jobs like full of dignity and respect and like a part of a trajectory in life, like I’m learning professional skills that are useful to me in many different industries.

And my managers invested in me, and that’s why they’re being tough, uh, in various ways. That’s a very different feeling and I wanna live in that world. I don’t wanna live in a world where we. You know, relegate people as second class citizens, depending on your employment. I wanna live in a world where everyone takes seriously their responsibility to use a mentor mindset and treat people with respect, both to improve performance, but also to just leave behind a legacy.

Of people whose lives you’ve changed with this mentoring approach.

Katie: Um, and as we wrap up, just what’s your top tip for managers? I mean, this could apply as you’re a parent or, you [00:45:00] know, a coach in other, uh, aspects too, but managers and coaches in the workplace. Like what’s one way in addition to asking questions that they can get better at, at showing up with this mentor mindset?

David: Yeah, I mean, I think besides asking way more than you tell and reframing stress as a resource rather than a liability. I think the simplest way to start is by being more transparent about what we’re doing because in fact, most people in their heart of hearts do intend to help others. Like the, the partner at the law firm who’s providing feedback wants the junior lawyer to be better.

They spent a bunch of money wooing these lawyers to these, these law firms, um, and they want ’em to grow and develop. Um, and so I think. What happens is people are used to enforcers, so then when you’re a tough mentor, they view you as, here we go again, another enforcer. So you have to be clear about what you’re doing and why, like I care about you too much, uh, to let this be the kind of work [00:46:00] that your skip boss is gonna evaluate.

I, I think you have too much potential, but, uh, it, it’s not yet at the point where you’re gonna impress people and be viewed as, as a high performer. But I mean, I think you can, but. Here’s our plan. We need to work together. And by the way, what are the kinds of things you think you would need? What are you unsure of?

Be transparent about what you’re doing and why, and then collaboratively troubleshoot. And then you don’t have to do things for people. They still will do it on their own, but you’ll find a lot more investment and, and, and, and frankly, compliance, if you do it that way.

Katie: Thank you so much, David. It’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

We could talk so much more. There’s so many stories we didn’t even cover, uh, here today from 10 to 25. Yeah. The book. And, uh, I highly recommend getting, if you’re a parent, a teacher, a coach, any kind of mentor, there’s. Incredible stories. It’s really easy and engaging to read and also great tips that I’ve already been applying at home and at work.

And so thank you. And also, this threw me back to my beginning, uh, of my career, which was at the same university that you did your grad [00:47:00] school at where I was studying, uh, behavioral psychology and used Professor Zimbardo’s time perspective inventory, actually looking at the behavior of college students.

So it was very aligned. And so yeah, I was all, all like. Back to Googling, uh, PhD programs. ’cause like maybe I should have gone back into research. So you like, threw me on the path that I didn’t take. But a really, really awesome book. I hope everyone reads it and checks out that AI app too.

David: Yeah. Anybody interested?

We call it Athenas ’cause it’s, um, you know, Athena was the first mentor in the Odyssey, so it’s like having a pocket full of. Mentors, uh, on the go, so.

Katie: Awesome. We’ll put links to everything in the show notes too, so everyone can go check out the book. Uh, Dave’s David web, website, and Athena website too. So,

David: awesome.

Katie: Thank you so much, David. Great to talk with you.

David: See you.

Katie: What really stood out to me in this conversation with David Yeager is that leading and mentoring young people, whether at home, at school, or in the workplace, isn’t about lowering the bar. Or enforcing compliance. It’s about holding high [00:48:00] standards with high support.

This is what it means to provide both challenge and support. It doesn’t have to be either or, it can be both. And just like I explored with Wendy Smith back in episode 35, David highlighted the mentor’s dilemma and why Both the enforcer mindset, high standards with harsh consequences, or what I’d say challenge without support and the protector mindset shielding someone from the stress of high expectations.

What I’d say, support without challenge miss the mark. The real solution is the mentor mindset, creating a learning zone where people are stretched and challenged, but also respected and supported. I especially loved his reminder that rigor isn’t about rigid rules or deadlines. It’s about helping people do meaningful, high quality work with flexibility in the process.

David’s research also aligns with what I’ve heard from more than 10,000 leaders I’ve worked with around the world. And I wrote about this in an Industry Week article titled, [00:49:00] so, you’re Leader Now. Forget Everything You’ve Learned. When asked to Recall a great leader, coach, or mentor, the answers are always the same.

Great leaders and coaches. Challenge you to achieve more than you thought was possible. Provide encouragement and lift you up when you’re stuck. Give constructive and sometimes tough feedback with kindness. Ask questions, listen and give space for your own ideas and genuinely care about your success.

These leaders and coaches showed up with the mentor mindset and a belief in the capability for others to learn and grow, and that’s how we all need to show up, no matter the age of the person we’re supporting. I also wanna highlight David’s final point about the power of transparency. Letting people know your intentions when you’re giving feedback or raising expectations or asking questions.

I call this labeling it, for example. If you’re shifting from telling to asking what I call Break the Telling Habit, others might wonder why is [00:50:00] she asking me this? But if you say to them, I’m asking because I want to hear your thinking, not just share mine. It can build trust and make your intentions clear.

There were so many great insights and stories that David and I didn’t have time to cover in this podcast. For example, why young transplant patients often don’t take their medicine to prevent organ rejection. What David’s Vegemite study teaches us about getting buy-in for something that doesn’t seem appealing or desirable.

Such as eating Vegemite, and as someone who has lived in Australia, I can tell you Vegemite is definitely an acquired taste and not appealing to most Australians. And why? The feedback sandwich that most of us were taught often backfires along with David’s alternative of providing wise feedback, which underpins Athena, the AI app that he and Carol Dweck have developed.

You’ll find all of these stories and insights and more in his book, which I highly recommend. Pick up a copy of 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People, and Check out the Athena app. The links are [00:51:00] in the show notes. As you reflect on this episode, ask yourself, where in your life as a parent, a mentor, a leader, do you fall into the trap of being either the enforcer or the protector?

And next time you find yourself gravitating towards one of these mindsets, how can you shift back into a mentor mindset, assuming positive intent, and then collaborate on solutions while still holding a high standard? And second, how can you build more trust by being more transparent about your intentions?

Practice what I call labeling it, describing your intentions behind what you’re doing or saying to invite engagement instead of just compliance. For some tips on how to do this, you can go back to episode 40, escape the Doer Trap, and Episode 44, master the Coaching Continuum. I’d love to hear how you’re applying these practices and what you’re learning.

Connect with me on LinkedIn and subscribe to my [email protected] slash newsletter. The more we lead with a mentor mindset, the better we’ll be at [00:52:00] growing our Chain of Learning. And creating a meaningful legacy. If you’re enjoying this podcast, be sure to follow and review it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast channel, and share this episode with your friends and colleagues so we can all strengthen our Chain of Learning together.

Thanks for being a link in my Chain of Learning today. I’ll see you next time. Have a great day.